Is Satan Real

January 12th, 2015 at 5:26:07 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: Evenbob
But Satan is never portrayed as mindless. He
is clever and wily beyond measure. He's
the trickster, the deceiver. It's all myth made
to scare children anyway, why do the details
matter.


Ever watch wrasslin'? You know tag teams? Some dude's getting pummeled in the ring, he wants to tag, but his partner is distracted so he keeps getting pummeled? Mmhmm. /glares at PacoMartin and Wiz

=)

Back to Face 1.0, I totally agree, and that's what I meant when mentioning to FrG about "fluff". Why DO the details matter? They seem to divide thought and obfuscate the point more than support it.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
January 12th, 2015 at 5:48:57 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Face
I totally agree, and that's what I meant when mentioning to FrG about "fluff". Why DO the details matter?


The more details a you give to a myth,
the more reality it takes on. Spread this
over a couple dozen centuries and myth
becomes fact. We have to be careful
about discussing religion, the promoters
use lots of details to draw you in, and
it fools a lot of people. All these details
can't be false, can they? There has to be
truth here too.

Nope. Just myth and speculation. And loads
of wishful thinking. Religion makes people
feel important, that a god is off somewhere
thinking about them personally, is concerned
about them. It keeps people in a permanent
state of adolescence, they never have to grow
up and think for themselves.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 12th, 2015 at 6:53:16 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Face
Because the Bible tells me so.
(I think I'm getting the hang of this ;))


You are getting the hang of it. the Bible tells a lot of things that are not true. Why should I believe this one.



Quote:
Because Satan isn't punishing you. He's attempting to hurt God. You are His most favorite creation, one to which he gave all His love. What better way to hurt someone than to hurt the ones He loves?


1) God sets the rules for Hell, including having Satan munching on people.

2) If we disregard the first point, then the assumption is that Satan is a spiteful idiot who prefers to have a small measure of revenge, rather than gathering allies and building up his power base to further his cause.

I'm sorry, but if it's the second one then God is an ungracious victor.


Quote:
Not if you're going to Vegas in bloody JUNE!


Not again. Last time I went in April. On some days it was cold.

Quote:
Unless you can fireman carry a 200lb man while wearing heels ;)


If faith can move mountains, it ought to do short work of bench-pressing you ;)

Of course, me of little faith...


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Again with the literal LOL. "Offense to Aphrodite". That's good stuff XD


I would take Aphrodite seriously. She was one cause in the Trojan war.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
January 13th, 2015 at 6:33:33 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Nareed
I would take Aphrodite seriously. She was one cause in the Trojan war.


Strike that.

Aphrodite was the cause of the Trojan War. The full story can be googled, I'm sure, with the phrase "The judgment of Paris." But had Aphrodite not been involved, Helen would have remained safely unabducted her entire life. Therefore she caused the War.

Of course the whole war as told by Homer is most likely 99% fiction, but it makes for a great story and it is beautifully rendered.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
January 17th, 2015 at 4:16:21 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Father Face, my brother in Christ - pretty good job. I feel your pain in looking for that tag out at times. I think two of your points in particular should be expanded upon.

You mentioned that the biggest tragedy or loss is God's love, which makes everything else even getting boiled in oil pale in comparison. Nareed suggested an interesting thought experiment of imagining boiling in oil compared to imagining losing God's love. You are correct in that the mind of believers it is not even a question, losing God's love is far worse that any torture imaginable - believe me Christians went through worse than being boiled and did so willingly rather than deny their love of God. However, this won't translate to those who 1- do not know or have experience the love of God or 2 - do not even believe in God. Therefore one could make the thought experiment either boiling in oil or having never experienced love from parents, family, or friends. There is nothing worse for us as human beings than not feeling that we are loved.

You also mentioned a profound reason why the Devil hates us so much. Satan wants to thwart God's plan and destroy and separate forever God's most beloved from Him. He is raging against the machine and while cunning and clever in ways we will never be able to match - compared to God he is like a spoiled selfish child who when punished goes on a terror spree.

One thing we could make clear is Hell is not someplace for those who disagree with God not is it for those who don't understand Him, don't believe in Him, or disagree with Him. It is for those who hate. Who hate God and hate their neighbor. For those who pretend to be God who want and make others serve them. It is basically made for Satan, but misery loves company and Lucifer would want nothing more than to convince you and I to go there with him. Not only does this thwart God's loving plan for you but it gives Satan slaves who will worship him and serve him forever. Whenever we pretend to be the boss and lord ourselves over others it eventually comes back upon us and destroys us - if we are not careful eternally.

This is where you interesting got EvenBob to go against something he was preaching recently about what goes around comes around. In getting him to admit that crime does pay and that most crimes do go unpunished he is unwittingly laying the groundwork for our natural hope in eternal judgement.

So overall I would say great job and thanks for doing that. Maybe I can tag you and Wizard for some help every once in a while when I get stuck from some of the very good challenges that come through the people on this forum. I missed you guys.

Oh by the way Wizard, another coincidence is that our parish uses the exact same Sadlier religious education series books.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 17th, 2015 at 4:43:45 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
It is for those who hate. Who hate God and hate their neighbor.


So is it ok to hate your neighbor so long as you love God? this would explain a lot, from Constantine to the Inquisition passing through the Crusades.

Either way I'm perfectly safe from Hell because 1) there's no God and you cannot hate that which does not exist and 2) there is no Hell, either.

Quote:
It is basically made for Satan, but misery loves company and Lucifer would want nothing more than to convince you and I to go there with him.


So because Lucifer disagreed with God, we know he hates God?

Who'd have thought God was a liberal who wants the terrorists to win? I wonder how the wingnuts in the GOP spin this.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
January 17th, 2015 at 4:57:12 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Satan wants to thwart God's plan and destroy and separate forever God's most beloved from Him.
.


So why doesn't satan reward the sinners
in hell instead of punishing them for god.
If he wants to thwart gods plan, why not
be the sinners best friend. The way you
describe it makes no sense.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 17th, 2015 at 9:13:39 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Nareed
So is it ok to hate your neighbor so long as you love God?


Where do you get this from? You cannot love God and hate your neighbor because if you truly loved God you would know that His number one commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself, the whole law and the prophets are summed up in this.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 17th, 2015 at 9:17:51 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
So why doesn't satan reward the sinners
in hell instead of punishing them for god.
If he wants to thwart gods plan, why not
be the sinners best friend. The way you
describe it makes no sense.


Actually if you think about it he does reward the sinners, briefly and fleetingly. You said yourself crime pays. This is all part of the insidious trap No body would ever sin if they were reminded all the time of the consequences to themselves and others, especially eternally. Satan is always trying to trick you into thinking your sin is righteous, enjoyable, and harmless - he pretends to be the sinner's friend than he crawdads and stabs your in the back.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 17th, 2015 at 11:50:39 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Actually if you think about it he does reward the sinners, briefly and fleetingly.


OMG, the Church has no answer for this!
The spin you just put on it is nonsense.
It makes no logical sense that Satan is
in hell punishing sinners, and he himself
hates god. For it to make sense, he should
be REWARDING sinners, making them his
friends and turning them against god even
more.

The way it's set up now, the myth has Satan
as gods prison warden, on the payroll to
punish those sinners who go to hell. How can
he be both gods enemy and doing gods work
for him. This is not very well thought out,
padre. It's good cop/bad cop, with both
cops (god/satan) both being on the same
side, with the same goals.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.