Who are happier -- Christians or Atheists?

Jesus was neither a god nor a great moral teacher.

The purpose of ethics and morality is to give us the tools we need to live our lives. Jesus' moral code is not concerned with life, but with pleasing a deity so one can be "saved" and receive a "good" afterlife.

You know, that's the one big failure I see in ancient Egypt's philosophy (and that there were no formal systems of philosophy as in Greece and Rome), though at least the Egyptians loved living in this world so much they expected it would continue in the afterlife.

The latter is only natural. Egypt was a wealthy nation, in the standards of the time, well-protected by natural boundaries and with a powerful standing army. For most of its long history, Egypt was prosperous and safe from foreign invasion and war. They also didn't suffer from extremely bad rulers like Nero or Caracalla.

Anyway, I'm beginning to suspect that Jesus' teachings, such as they are, borrow a great deal from Egypt rather than from Judaism. Consider:

1) Egyptian gods came in groups of three. Father, Mother and Son. For instance Osiris, Ist and Horus, though they weren't worshipped as a trinity and there was no nonsense about all three being really one but being three and always, always at war with Eastasia.

2) Egypt had its evil deity as well: Seth. And though Horus vanquished Seth to avenge his father, he did not kill him. A further difference is that some Egyptians worshipped Seth, including more than one pharaoh.

3) Egyptians were the big believers in the after life. They were obsessed with it. The famous pyramids are nothing but large, elaborate graves meant to convey the pharaoh to the next world. What's surprising is that pyramid building stopped and more modest, though still lavish, burials came later.

4) Seth kills Osiris by drowning him in the Nile. after a rather lengthy odyssey, Osiris' wife Ist resurrects him.

5) Egypt's nearest thing to a holy book is the Book of the Dead. In fact this is a collection copied from prayers and rituals carved or painted in the walls of the tombs of the early kings. Later people wrote them inside their coffins (not everyone could afford an elaborate tomb), and alter still in papyri scrolls which were then placed inside the coffins.

I'll give the matter some more thought.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know what your love affair with the Jesus Seminar is all about, but you should know it is an example of poorly done research and its conclusions and works are widely criticized.

Oh yes, the Church screamed bloody murder
and does to this day. But who wouldn't,
their very foundation is threatened by
such research, of course they went to
any lengths to discredit it.

Quote: Evenbob

Oh yes, the Church screamed bloody murder
and does to this day. But who wouldn't,
their very foundation is threatened by
such research, of course they went to
any lengths to discredit it.

Nobody, especially the Church, has screamed bloody murder about this because in serious circles it is mostly ignored. Really you should look into the make-up of the seminar, their voting methods, publicity, research, etc. it really discredits itself.

Quote: Nareed

The purpose of ethics and morality is to give us the tools we need to live our lives. Jesus' moral code is not concerned with life, but with pleasing a deity so one can be "saved" and receive a "good" afterlife.

Actually, Jesus came to set us free from the law, which Jesus saw stifling and impossible for mankind to follow. The idea before Jesus was the only way to please God was by following the law. The problem was nobody could follow the law, because everybody sinned. This made people feel guilty and shameful and generally unhappy. They felt like they had to continually sacrifice to God to appease Him. Jesus came to say that God is pleased with you not because you follow the law, but because you are His beloved children. It is about who you are, not about what you do. The only thing we need do is accept the unconditional love of God and recognize our dignity as heirs to the kingdom because of God's Grace not our fulfillment of the law.

So you can see that for Jesus we were and are already pleasing to God and His moral code is not about fulfilling some law, but mostly in recognizing God's love for you and that all people are equal and should be treated as such. A good example of this is when Jesus and His disciples are accused of breaking the Sabbath Law. Jesus explains that, "the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

Quote: FrGamble

Actually, Jesus came to set us free from the law, which Jesus saw stifling and impossible for mankind to follow.

If you're talking about what scholars call Mosaic Law (which strikes me as a great name for a law firm with a side business in tiles and bathroom fixtures), I've never concerned myself with it.

Quote:

They felt like they had to continually sacrifice to God to appease Him.

As opposed to continually having to sacrifice to everyone in order to remain in his favor? Not long ago you pretty much branded every moral action a sacrifice.

Quote:

Jesus came to say that God is pleased with you not because you follow the law, but because you are His beloved children. It is about who you are, not about what you do.

This would help explain the incredibly stupid (brainless) idea that "salvation" comes through faith and not by one's actions.

[gratuitous provocation removed]

Quote:

So you can see that for Jesus we were and are already pleasing to God and His moral code is not about fulfilling some law, but mostly in recognizing God's love for you and that all people are equal and should be treated as such.

And that it doesn't apply to this world and this life, but to gain or keep the favor of God and attain "salvation."

You know, given the level and intensity of the intransigence you face here, perhaps you ought to consider spending your efforts where you may actually accomplish something. From some of the actually good things you say now and then, it occurs to me plenty of Christians, some of them high in the hierarchy of the Church, could use your ministrations for an actual good effect.

I don't mean you ought to leave the forum or even stop talking about religion. But you should face the fact I'm titanium-strong in my convictions and will not break.

Quote: FrGamble

Nobody, especially the Church, has screamed bloody murder about this because in serious circles it is mostly ignored. .

It is now, it wasn't when it came out.
I remember that clearly, church
leaders everywhere were calling it
some very bad names. Only
20% of what Jesus was supposed to
have said passed muster, and a lot
of that was from the Thomas gospel.

The credentials of a lot of the people
involved was truly impressive. I still
have a copy of the book here somewhere.

Quote: FrGamble

The only thing we need do is accept the unconditional love of God

Only? You act like it's an afterthought, you
'only' have to do this and you're home free.

Unfortunately there is a whole boatload of
other things connected to that small 'only
thing' we must do, and you know it. There
is a whole laundry list of things that must
be swallowed hook line and sinker first.

The 'only thing we need do' is actually the
last step in a process that's fraught with
bad conclusions, guesswork and outright
assumptions. A path you can go down if
you have blinders on, and have suspended
your disbelief at the door.

Quote: Evenbob

It is now, it wasn't when it came out.

Remember our earlier discussion on evidence for credibility is often found in how many people have faith in something and for how long?

Quote: Nareed

I don't mean you ought to leave the forum or even stop talking about religion. But you should face the fact I'm titanium-strong in my convictions and will not break.

I'm sure the padre, like the rest of us,
posts for his own edification and not
to try and sway anyone's beliefs.
Discussions like this are far better for
the poster than for the reader because
it makes us think.

Quote: FrGamble

Remember our earlier discussion on evidence for credibility is often found in how many people have faith in something and for how long?

Why would a book like that have any
impact on anything? It's like throwing
a cup full of water on the sun. It made
the point for a small number of people,
which was it's intent.