Who are happier -- Christians or Atheists?

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January 21st, 2015 at 8:04:19 PM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 49
Posts: 426
Quote: Evenbob
Greed. As Alec Baldwin said in the movie, greed is good.




Michael Douglas delivered this line in his Academy Award winning role as Gordon Gecko from the movie Wall Street
January 22nd, 2015 at 7:26:23 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 328
Posts: 11349
Quote: FrGamble
And from this handful of Christians the faith in Jesus Christ spread around the world and has impacted human history in a way that boggles the mind to think about.


And you think the lightning will strike again? This time we're better able to defend against it.

It's fun to speculate. But like taking back modern science to the Roman Republic, or coopting the Egyptian civilization early on, these are all mere fantasies that will never come about.

Quote:
I'm sorry but this is what makes absolutely no sense at all. You are asking us to reject every good movie we have ever seen. Any book or poetry that ever made us cry. You are asking us to laugh at and mock our mothers, service men and women, and anyone who is crazy enough to truly love.


Love is the most selfish emotion possible to humanity. That's what makes it so great.

You love people for what they mean to you, for the value they bring to your life. You cannot love if you do not value yourself first. Because then anything brought into your life would be of no consequence to you.

You can now proceed to get this all wrong. I prefer to knock down your counterpoints one by one than to bring up my own.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
January 22nd, 2015 at 10:44:50 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 110
Posts: 11597
Quote: Nareed
You cannot love if you do not value yourself first. Because then anything brought into your life would be of no consequence to you.


I have said for decades that Christianity
is the 'me me me' religion. It's all about
you. You're sins, you're behavior, where
you will go after you die, how Jesus died
for you, specifically. It's the Church of ego.
You are better and more noble than every
other creature on earth. Why, even god
made YOU is his image, you are practically
a god.

The ego and arrogance of many Christians
is appalling. That they think they're 'special'
in their cult (that's not a cult) and above you
is evident when you talk to them. So I avoid
doing that whenever possible.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 22nd, 2015 at 11:16:44 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 45
Posts: 5191
Quote: Evenbob
I have said for decades that Christianity
is the 'me me me' religion. It's all about
you. You're sins, you're behavior, where
you will go after you die, how Jesus died
for you, specifically. It's the Church of ego.
You are better and more noble than every
other creature on earth. Why, even god
made YOU is his image, you are practically
a god.


It is far better to be practically a god than to pretend to be God.

Listen to what you and Nareed have been saying recently. Rejecting sacrifice, calling love selfish, and you saying that your heart alone can decide what to do and that you don't need to listen to anyone else or follow the rules. You sound like an egomaniac. It is you who are saying, "me, me, me" while Christianity consistently says, "us, us, us" or "you, you, you". Christianity is the opposite of ego.

Your consistent claim that I am egotistical all revolves around the fact that I think human beings are special, unique, and better than any other animal. That does not make me egotistical but rather anthropocentric. Guilty as charged.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:07:11 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 110
Posts: 11597
edited
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:07:29 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 45
Posts: 5191
Quote: Nareed
And you think the lightning will strike again? This time we're better able to defend against it.

It's fun to speculate. But like taking back modern science to the Roman Republic, or coopting the Egyptian civilization early on, these are all mere fantasies that will never come about.


No need to speculate. Look at the impact of saints like Francis of Assisi or Mother Teresa. Imagine for a second a Church full of Francises and Mother Teresas and you would see a world converted in short order. The closer people live like Jesus the more the lightning knocks people off their high horses and try as they might they all end up like St. Paul.


Quote:
Love is the most selfish emotion possible to humanity. That's what makes it so great.

You love people for what they mean to you, for the value they bring to your life. You cannot love if you do not value yourself first. Because then anything brought into your life would be of no consequence to you.

You can now proceed to get this all wrong. I prefer to knock down your counterpoints one by one than to bring up my own.


Okay, I am sure you mean to say that sacrifice is really no sacrifice at all to a person in love. For example, a man who stays up all night every night to care for his dying wife finds immense value in his life for sacrificing his desires and wants to serve the one he so jealously loves. I can see that and I agree. What looks like sacrifice for you and I peering in through the windows is the source of greatest joy for the one who is in love.
January 22nd, 2015 at 12:11:05 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 110
Posts: 11597
Quote: FrGamble

Your consistent claim that I am egotistical all revolves around the fact that I think human beings are special, unique, .


And so are turtles and cats.. Just go to any
Sunday sermon and you'll hear the praising
of the ego. God, the creator of the universe,
has a plan for YOU, for you specifically. God
is so in touch with you, he cares deeply about
the most mundane picayune aspects of your
life. You can't help but think that for god, the
creator of everything, to pay this much attention
to you, you must be pretty darned important.

This is great for those who feel worthless or
helpless, adrift in an uncaring universe, to
feel important and cared for. But for those of
us who don't feel worthless and helpless,
it's very difficult to see anything spiritual in
such egocentricity.

Nietzsche said it best when writing about
Christianity. "salvation of the soul—in plain
words, the world revolves around me."

Ever read Nietzsche? He was astounding.

"The thing that sets us (atheists) apart is not that we are unable to find God, either in history, or in nature, or behind nature -- but that we regard what has been honoured as God, not as "divine," but as pitiable, as absurd, as injurious; not as a mere error, but as a crime against life. . . We deny God as God . . . If any one were to show us this Christian God, we'd be still less inclined to believe in him."

He really gets into it, you want to read
what a genius atheist has to say on the
subject, this is your guy. But be warned,
he's not for the feint of heart.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 22nd, 2015 at 4:07:58 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 328
Posts: 11349
Quote: FrGamble
Okay, I am sure you mean to say that sacrifice is really no sacrifice at all to a person in love.


I am sure I don't.

Love is an entirely selfish emotion. Sacrifice has nothing to do with love.

Quote:
For example, a man who stays up all night every night to care for his dying wife finds immense value in his life for sacrificing his desires and wants to serve the one he so jealously loves.


It's times like these I wish I could resort to resounding phrases like "For the love of God NO!"

A man who loves his wife will find great joy in spending time with her, especially in her last moments. He will want to comfort her then.

Sacrifice would involve leaving his dying wife's side for something "greater" than himself, like maybe attending a fundraiser for the poor.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
January 22nd, 2015 at 6:08:04 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 45
Posts: 5191
Quote: Nareed
A man who loves his wife will find great joy in spending time with her, especially in her last moments. He will want to comfort her then.

Sacrifice would involve leaving his dying wife's side for something "greater" than himself, like maybe attending a fundraiser for the poor.


The essence of his love is treating his wife as greater than himself. He is more than willing to miss fundraisers or any event to stay with his wife. He is willing to forgo good food and sleep to be with her. Love is putting your needs behind the needs of your beloved.

Sacrifice has everything to do with love. What do you call it when parents wake up over and over in the middle of the night to feed their hungry baby, when they watch Frozen for the hundredth time, when they save up their hard earned money for the college tuition? Love requires sacrifice.

Think again of every single good movie and book you have read. The story involves some type of sacrifice. What would you think of the man who jumps on the grenade to save his buddies? What do you think about Martin Luther King, Jr. who sacrificed so much for something grater than himself?
January 22nd, 2015 at 7:14:27 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 45
Posts: 5191
I have indeed read Nietzsche. He at the same time opens my eyes and makes me throw up in my mouth. He like Sartre is one of the few atheists who truly understood the consequences of atheism and didn't care. For their unflinching consistency and for not being scared to go where eventually atheism leads us I give them mad props.

However, Nietzsche and you continually flip Christianity upside down and side wards. Our salvation of the soul is found precisely in recognizing that the world does NOT revolve around me. Rick Warren's famous book, "The Purpose Driven Life" has the best opening line ever: "It's not about you." God does love you, care about you, and wants to be in a relationship with you - not so that you can ace the test, make the cheer leading squad, or get rich. It is so that you can serve God and neighbor, so you can lose yourself and become more like God. (All this would make Nietzsche very upset and I think I see steam coming out of Nareed's head right now too)

By the way I am glad that you don't feel worthless and helpless adrift in an uncaring universe, but you should know that this is exactly what honest atheists like Nietzsche and Sartre came to realize. They embraced this idea and tried to make the best of it, Sartre with his radical freedom and Nietzsche ironically enough through a worship of ego and becoming a superman.
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