Was Jesus God?

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August 7th, 2016 at 2:11:20 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
in fact in many places it says to look to the authority of the Church and its Tradition.


I'm not touching that with any length
pole. I've heard my minister in law
father go on and on about this and
how the Church is totally absolutely
wrong. Personally, it's all nonsense
to me, every bit of. I'm not wasting a
minute of time on it. Fairy tales using
other fairy tales to prove they're right,
fah on all of it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 7th, 2016 at 3:56:51 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
You don't understand authority and the living Tradition of the Church.


I understand it, I just don't recognize it's validity.

Same with many of those religions that split from the church, same with the religions that never followed the church at all.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
August 7th, 2016 at 4:01:46 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
Absolutely not true.


Why, because the church says so?

The same words are written down for everyone to interpret.

I don't know how many times I have seen the words "gods will be done" or similar as a statement of the inevitable, or as a description of something that happened that no one had the power or ability to change.

In Mary's case, in the translations that are widely available, it sure looks like she is resigned to gods will and did not choose to become pregnant. Maybe she didn't even know or believe that she was supposed to have a choice.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
August 7th, 2016 at 4:11:11 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Dalex64

In Mary's case, in the translations that are widely available, it sure looks like she is resigned to gods will and did not choose to become pregnant. Maybe she didn't even know or believe that she was supposed to have a choice.


Doesn't matter what her stance was,
she was having sex with her husband
and conceived a child. Neither Jesus
nor Paul ever mentioned that Mary
was a virgin, the stories didn't show
up till the 2nd century in Matthew
and Luke. That people thinks it's true
gives them a 100% reading on the gullibility
meter.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 8th, 2016 at 7:29:59 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Both Matthew and Luke were written before the end of the 1st Century. Also you are again making the mistake that because Jesus doesn't mention His virgin birth than that means it didn't happen. It was clearly a given and common knowledge that everyone knew. You don't need to write about or talk about things that everyone agrees with. If people were questioning Paul about this then no doubt he would have written more about it.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 8th, 2016 at 7:34:24 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
I understand it, I just don't recognize it's validity.

Same with many of those religions that split from the church, same with the religions that never followed the church at all.


Hey, that is your pejorative. You can just rely on your own authority as many of the people who split from the Church did during the reformation, but look where that gets you - more and more division. I feel like it would be much better to challenge authority by making reasoned arguments. For example your argument that Mary had no choice is not supported by the language used in the Bible, both in Luke's Gospel and both the Old and New Testaments. It is also contradicted by the teaching of the Apostles and the early tradition of prayer and devotion to Mary that exist in the Church.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 8th, 2016 at 7:50:10 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
Also you are again making the mistake that because Jesus doesn't mention His virgin birth than that means it didn't happen. It was clearly a given and common knowledge that everyone knew.


Everyone knew Jesus impregnated his own mother?

See, there were script problems from day one.

Hatshepsut faced a great deal of opposition when she tried to assume power. So she made up a story about being the daughter of Amun. That's remarkable given that her actual father, as pharaoh, was considered to be Horus on Earth. Later on, Alexander made up a whopper of a story involving his mother and a god as well. Mere mortals can only do so much. Julius Caesar claimed to be descended from Venus.

The common denominator here is an impediment towards grabbing the reins of power. Hatshepsut was a woman. Alexander was young, and his father had been killed under mysterious circumstances. Caesar was trying to overthrow the Republic.

So Jesus claims he had incest with his mother to get himself born.

So what?

The only remarkable thing is he would claim such blatant an act as incest. Though perhaps not so much. In Egypt this would have been seen as normal, for gods and royalty.
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August 8th, 2016 at 8:27:26 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
Both Matthew and Luke were written before the end of the 1st Century. Also you are again making the mistake that because Jesus doesn't mention His virgin birth than that means it didn't happen. It was clearly a given and common knowledge that everyone knew. You don't need to write about or talk about things that everyone agrees with. If people were questioning Paul about this then no doubt he would have written more about it.


That is the exactly the kind of "filling in of the gaps" that I am talking about.

Declare something is common knowledge that everyone knew, therefore no one talked about it, and give it the same certitude as the sun rising and falling each day, even though Jesus never mentioned that either.

It certainly wasn't common knowledge among the Jewish people. They were there too. They neither confirmed it nor refuted it, at the time, as if it never happened that way in the first place.

It is probably relevant to point out a scholarly-looking Jewish opinion on the matter: http://www.beingjewish.com/toshuv/virgin.html
Shows what the Christians had to do to change the interpretation of the OT to develop the prophesy supposedly fulfilled.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
August 8th, 2016 at 8:31:54 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
Hey, that is your pejorative. You can just rely on your own authority as many of the people who split from the Church did during the reformation, but look where that gets you - more and more division. I feel like it would be much better to challenge authority by making reasoned arguments. For example your argument that Mary had no choice is not supported by the language used in the Bible, both in Luke's Gospel and both the Old and New Testaments. It is also contradicted by the teaching of the Apostles and the early tradition of prayer and devotion to Mary that exist in the Church.


I think you mean prerogative, not pejorative.

"rely on your own authority" is exactly what the church does.

"more and more division" does not mean all of them are wrong.

"not supported by the language" - I gave you specific examples of how the language is used and can be interpreted.

"contradicted by the teaching of the Apostles" - circular logic. Of course it is contradicted by the teachings of the apostles, they are the ones who are claiming something to be true.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
August 8th, 2016 at 11:37:50 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
because Jesus doesn't mention His virgin birth .


Jesus was first and foremost a salesman of
himself, or at least that's how he's portrayed
in the later myths written about him called
the Gospels. He was always telling people
who he was, even doing magic tricks to
impress them. What a huge selling point, to
tell them he was born of a virgin. Too bad
Matthew and Luke didn't make that up too,
but how could they know what a huge deal
the Church would make out of Mary. Virgin
birth stories were a dime a dozen in the 1st
century, nobody was impressed.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
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