Spoiler commetns on "The Shawshank Redemption."

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January 27th, 2015 at 1:30:54 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
I've been thinking a lot a bout this movie, though it must have been months since I last saw it. For this discussion I'm assuming some familiarity with it.

First there's the epic scene where Andy nearly gets thrown off a roof. Let's take a look.

The chief guard, I forget his name, is bitching about having received an inheritance due to the taxes he'll have to pay. Andy Dufrense (SP?) steps up and asks the guard "Do you trust your wife?" That's an odd thing for an inmate to say, yes? Rather provocative and guaranteed to get a hostile reaction. This escalates to the guard holding him on the edge of the roof (the scene takes place on a roof the inmates are resurfacing), where Andy hurriedly explains he can avoid all taxes by making the money a gift to his wife. Then offers to set it up for him in exchange for a few beers for the work gang on the roof. The guard reluctantly takes him up on it, making threats along the way.

The next scene has the inmates relaxing while drinking beer, and Andy sits a bit apart and placidly watches. He does not drink beer.

Now, what was in it for Andy? Why did he do what he did?

To begin with he was hounded by a prison gang who liked to abuse him sexually. This had been going on for two years. It's clear to me Andy wanted to get in good with the guards, and best of all with the chief guard, in order to get protection. At an earlier point he fails to find protection with the inmates. But getting in with the guards would turn the inmates against him, and Andy had made friends among them, mostly with Red. They wouldn't beat him up and abuse him, not with guards on his side, but they could ostracize him, at the least, and find other ways to make an already bad life in prison worse.

So he comes up with the idea of getting the inmates in the work gang some beer.

Problem solved. The inmates love him now.

Later the guards corner the prisoner who has been abusing Andy and beat him to a pulp. He winds up a quadriplegic and will no doubt have a miserable existence henceforth. It's hard to feel any pity for him, but not absolutely impossible. One wonders what Andy intended.

Regardless of the, perhaps, unintended consequences, Andy made a brilliant move for himself. Not entirely moral, but under the circumstances and the issues he faced, it's hard to blame him.
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January 27th, 2015 at 1:47:27 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
I've read everything by Stephen King.
Rita Hayworth and Shawshank Redemption
was written in 1982, at the height of King's
career. 80% of his best stuff had already
been written, or soon would be. Shawshank
was a novella, and not typical King. It
was full of morality plays and deeper meaning.
I wish he had written more like it. Not that
I disliked any of his work. I still can't reread
'IT', scared the crap out of me.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 27th, 2015 at 2:10:44 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Morgan Freeman's narration is the key to understanding Andy's motives. He says in that beautiful voice that you could think Andy did it to make some friends with the inmates or curry favor with the guards, but ultimately Red says that he thinks Andy did it, "just to feel normal again."

What a great line. We are normal when we are simply helping others, not only because of what it does for us but because it makes us feel good to do it. This is not the only time Andy does a crazy thing just to feel normal. For example when he plays the record of classical music to the whole prison he pays a great price for doing that, but he does it because he wants to feel normal again and help others to realize that prison is false, there is beauty still in the world.

Also if I remember the scene where the guards beat up the prisoner who is torturing Andy comes after he starts doing their taxes. The guards don't necessarily do that for Andy, but to protect their cash cow. The whole plot is set up as the prison, the main guard Hadley, and the Warden as being evil. They are trying to institutionalize even the innocent, and everyone is innocent in Shawshank. It is called Redemption because Andy turns the tide on them and escapes. He won't let them institutionalize him but instead brings hope to the prisoners. Hope is normal and it is too strong to be extinguished - even by Shawshank.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 27th, 2015 at 2:13:30 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Morgan Freeman's narration is the key to understanding Andy's motives.


The director said he got the narration idea
from Goodfellas. It helps the audience keep
up with the timeline. Think of Goodfellas
without the narration, it would be very hard
to follow.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 27th, 2015 at 2:48:41 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
FrGamble is quite correct. It wasn't just that the head guards were getting their taxes done but so were all the lower ranking guards and visiting guards.

In reality some things you see in the movies would simply not be happening in real life. Guards don't much care what you did and certainly don't care if you are guilty or not. Oh yeah, once a man in prison for sixteen years was going to be getting out because the real perpetrator confessed, and a guard brought him a hamburger and chatted for awhile, but usually guards don't care about prisoners or what happens that doesn't leave bruises on the prisoners or blood stains on the walls.
January 27th, 2015 at 2:59:21 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Fleastiff

In reality some things you see in the movies would simply not be happening in real life. Guards don't much care what you did and certainly don't care if you are guilty or not.


If you can believe G Gordon Liddy, and I do,
his experience was that most guards are dumb
as a bag of hammers. It's the lowest of low
jobs, you voluntarily spend every day in prison.
Sure you can go home, but you still have to deal
with people who hate your guts and want you
dead, because to them you symbolize why they're
in prison. Only really stupid people could do the
job without it bothering them.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 27th, 2015 at 3:06:47 PM permalink
DJTeddyBear
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 5
Posts: 265
I don't own many DVDs, but Shawshank is one of them.



Quote: Nareed
But getting in with the guards would turn the inmates against him
Not necessarily. The first (only?) thing he got the guards to do for him was to provide the beer to the other inmates. There's no reason for the other inmates to feel jealousy or hatred towards Andy unless Andy tries to use his influence again in some manner.


Quote: Nareed
Andy had made friends among them, mostly with Red.
And Red was important among the other inmates.


Besides, it was Red's influence with the guards that helped get Andy and the other key inmates on the roof job to begin with. So maybe when Andy made that deal with the guards on that roof, there was no real reason to hate Andy because of it.
Ignorance is bliss and knowledge is power. But having only some facts can get you into trouble!
January 27th, 2015 at 6:20:45 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
Morgan Freeman's narration is the key to understanding Andy's motives.


Morgan Freeman plays God in another movie, not this one ;)

Seriously, his narrative, as Red, is what Red thinks and what he knows and what he saw and heard. His explanation as to Andy's motives is no more valid than mine, since we both saw the same things.

Quote:
Also if I remember the scene where the guards beat up the prisoner who is torturing Andy comes after he starts doing their taxes.


As I recall after doing Hadley the favor, he's sent to assist Brooks with the "library." Immediately thereafter a guard comes to get help in setting a college fund. Later Andy gets attacked again. He makes up some story that he will bite down if they try knifing him, by reflex. So instead they beat him up. After that is when Hadley retaliates and beats up the other inmate.

Red tells his gang they owe Andy for getting rid of the rape gang, and they should gather the rocks he wants to carve out a chess set. When Andy returns from the infirmary, he finds the Rita Hayworth poster on his bed. Next he starts doing the taxes at the yearly baseball "game."

None of this affects my analysis.

Quote:
The guards don't necessarily do that for Andy, but to protect their cash cow.


Yes, which is why Andy offered to help Hadley beat the tax man.

Quote:
The whole plot is set up as the prison, the main guard Hadley, and the Warden as being evil.


Did you notice the Warden is supposed to be Christian as well? He makes a big deal about Bibles, blasphemy, and has a Biblical quote adorning his office.

Just saying.


Quote:
They are trying to institutionalize even the innocent, and everyone is innocent in Shawshank.


Red admitted to killing someone in his last parole hearing. No innocent, he.

Quote:
It is called Redemption because Andy turns the tide on them and escapes.


I thought it was Red's redemption. Near the end, at the hearing where he gets paroled, he admits everything he did and that it was wrong and, worse, a very stupid thing to do.
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January 27th, 2015 at 7:11:27 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Nareed
Morgan Freeman plays God in another movie, not this one ;)

Seriously, his narrative, as Red, is what Red thinks and what he knows and what he saw and heard. His explanation as to Andy's motives is no more valid than mine, since we both saw the same things.


I think Red knows Andy a little bit more than you, make that a whole lot better. The idea of a narrator in the story is often to help you figure out things you might not get. I would take Red's words over your analysis, especially because Red makes a specific point to reject what you might be thinking.


Quote:
As I recall after doing Hadley the favor, he's sent to assist Brooks with the "library." Immediately thereafter a guard comes to get help in setting a college fund. Later Andy gets attacked again. He makes up some story that he will bite down if they try knifing him, by reflex. So instead they beat him up. After that is when Hadley retaliates and beats up the other inmate.


The library job comes after the beating scene and Hadley's retaliation.

Quote:
Red tells his gang they owe Andy for getting rid of the rape gang, and they should gather the rocks he wants to carve out a chess set. When Andy returns from the infirmary, he finds the Rita Hayworth poster on his bed. Next he starts doing the taxes at the yearly baseball "game."

None of this affects my analysis.


It has nothing to do with Andy getting rid of the rape gang, in fact the "sodomites" as they are called still exist they just lost their leader and it was made very clear that Andy was off limits. They gave the rocks to make a chess set because of the time he had to spend in the infirmary after the beating, did you watch the movie? :-) Also again it is only after a surprise inspection after Andy gets back from the infirmary that the warden moves him to the library. Then a little bit later he starts doing a college fund, then taxes, and then they reschedule the yearly softball league to coincide with tax season.

Is your analysis still that Andy had selfish motives for the rooftop scene or for the playing of the opera, or for just about anything he does? If so you are wrong.



Quote:
Yes, which is why Andy offered to help Hadley beat the tax man.


Actually, I was wrong Andy doesn't start doing their taxes till later in the movie, so Hadley wasn't protecting a cash cow. Andy would have had no way of knowing what was going to happen with the beating or any idea of what the guards would do.



Quote:
Did you notice the Warden is supposed to be Christian as well? He makes a big deal about Bibles, blasphemy, and has a Biblical quote adorning his office.

Just saying.


Put your trust in the Lord, your ass belongs to me.



Quote:

Red admitted to killing someone in his last parole hearing. No innocent, he.


Seriously, have you seen the movie?


Quote:

I thought it was Red's redemption. Near the end, at the hearing where he gets paroled, he admits everything he did and that it was wrong and, worse, a very stupid thing to do.


Good point I think Red's redemption is part of the reason for the title. But the main point of Shawshank Redemeption is about Andy. Through his bringing hope and keeping it throughout the struggles of Shawshank he ends up giving Red the ability to avoid institutionalization and be redeemed.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 28th, 2015 at 6:46:21 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
I would take Red's words over your analysis, especially because Red makes a specific point to reject what you might be thinking.


If you want to be wrong, go right ahead.

Quote:
The library job comes after the beating scene and Hadley's retaliation.


YEs, I got the timeline wrong. here's what happens:

Roof
Beer
Movie (Andy asks for Rita Hayworth)
Andy gets attacked
Boggs gets beaten up savagely by Hadley and the guards.

This makes my analysis look much better, not worse. Andy gets a rather quick pay off for helping Hadley, and the inmates love him for it.

Quote:
It has nothing to do with Andy getting rid of the rape gang, in fact the "sodomites" as they are called still exist they just lost their leader and it was made very clear that Andy was off limits.


Andy and his friends.

Quote:
Is your analysis still that Andy had selfish motives for the rooftop scene or for the playing of the opera, or for just about anything he does? If so you are wrong.


Andy had selfish motives for everything he did. He was a great character.

He was also the one innocent man in Shawshank, The one good man and the one moral man. The other inmates failed to measure up to some degree, even Red. If anyone comes close to Andy, surprisingly enough, it's the kid Andy helps to get his high school degree. He not only wanted to change his life for the better, but was willing to repay Andy for his help regardless of the cost to him.


Quote:
Good point I think Red's redemption is part of the reason for the title. But the main point of Shawshank Redemeption is about Andy.


What did Andy need to be redeemed for? he never did anything which justly landed him in prison. He was innocent. Red wasn't, he admits as much. Red deserved to be in jail. He needed to be redeemed.
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