Spoiler commetns on "The Shawshank Redemption."

Quote: Nareed

If you want to be wrong, go right ahead.

Wow I'm glad your analysis is more correct than even the author of the story ;)

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Andy had selfish motives for everything he did. He was a great character.

Ha, this is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Now I am sure you haven't watched the movie. What was his selfish reason for playing the opera record to the prison or for getting his friends the beer he never drank or for creating the library in Shawshank or for leaving Red what he needed to join him?

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He was also the one innocent man in Shawshank, The one good man and the one moral man. The other inmates failed to measure up to some degree, even Red. If anyone comes close to Andy, surprisingly enough, it's the kid Andy helps to get his high school degree. He not only wanted to change his life for the better, but was willing to repay Andy for his help regardless of the cost to him.

That is true Andy is the best of them and he changes people's lives. He inspires this tough kid to sacrifice anything for Andy or as you put it, "was willing to repay Andy for his help regardless of the cost to him." This is that selfish young buck's redemption.

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What did Andy need to be redeemed for? he never did anything which justly landed him in prison. He was innocent. Red wasn't, he admits as much. Red deserved to be in jail. He needed to be redeemed.

Andy does not need to be redeemed, as you mentioned he is the only truly innocent one in Shawshank. He was innocent and yet through his suffering and sacrifice he redeemed in the end Red and the prison by getting rid of the evil warden and head guard. You could look at Andy in this sense as kind of like a Christ like figure. An innocent man who comes into a sinful world to bring hope drive out evil and redeem all those willing to listen and follow him.

Quote: FrGamble

Wow I'm glad your analysis is more correct than even the author of the story ;)

What, you've never come across a critic before? ;)

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Ha, this is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

Did you hear yourself just now?

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What was his selfish reason for playing the opera record to the prison or for getting his friends the beer he never drank

I've explained this.

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or for creating the library in Shawshank

A good man will want to improve his surroundings, including other people around him, as and when possible, because this is to his benefit. Do you suppose Andy would rather work in the laundry or the library? And given a library, would he be satisfied with some ratty old books which hardly fill a small room, or would he want the best library he could get? You think the man has no pride?

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or for leaving Red what he needed to join him?

Red was his friend and Andy loved him. What more reason do you need? He didn't invite any of the other inmates.

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You could look at Andy in this sense as kind of like a Christ like figure.

I could, if I didn't like Andy (actually I don't care for the actor as a person, but the character is golden).

Here's a better question:

During the day Andy was busy running the library, helping some inmates study, channeling the warden's dirty money to clean reservoirs, and from time to time handing out financial advice and ding taxes. During the night Andy was busy chipping away at his wall behind the poster.

When did he get any sleep or any rest?

Quote: Nareed

A good man will want to improve his surroundings, including other people around him, as and when possible, because this is to his benefit. Do you suppose Andy would rather work in the laundry or the library? And given a library, would he be satisfied with some ratty old books which hardly fill a small room, or would he want the best library he could get? You think the man has no pride?

I think he is a selfless good man who wants to help others and himself to feel normal again, to keep hope alive, and to avoid becoming institutionalized. Because of this he writes a letter every day to the department of corrections to get donated books. When they finally give in to his requests and give him more than he could ever personally want including some records, he shows clearly why he is doing all this - to redeem and help others. He plays that classical record to give everyone in Shawshank a brief glimpse of freedom and hope. He does this of course to great cost to himself, but to him it is worth it.

What does he do next he starts writing TWO letters a day to the department of corrections until Andy has the best prison library in the State, maybe the country - is this to his benefit? Yes. Is that the reason he did it? Absolutely not. He did it to help people learn, free their minds, relax, be entertained, and get their diplomas. When we do these things for others the usual fringe benefit is that it is a blessing to us as well. Of course the guards and the inmates are happy with Andy because of what he has done, but that is not the main reason he is doing it. We are not normal when we are not selfless, kind, and giving. That is what makes prison such an unnatural place. You need an Andy or two to redeem it.

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Here's a better question:

During the day Andy was busy running the library, helping some inmates study, channeling the warden's dirty money to clean reservoirs, and from time to time handing out financial advice and ding taxes. During the night Andy was busy chipping away at his wall behind the poster.

When did he get any sleep or any rest?

That is a great question and I have no idea.

Quote: FrGamble

That is a great question and I have no idea.

I wondered that too. He was doing the
work of 3 men, basically, as he apparently
never slept. Like in Groundhog Day. He
would have repeated the same day over
and over for years in order to become a expert
piano player and learn to ice sculpture
so well. Implausible.

Quote: FrGamble

I think he is a selfless good man who wants to help others and himself to feel normal again, to keep hope alive, and to avoid becoming institutionalized.

You haven't said anything that would make Andy selfless.

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Because of this he writes a letter every day to the department of corrections to get donated books.

Despite your misgivings, I have seen the movie several times. I know how far he foes to get a library.

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He plays that classical record to give everyone in Shawshank a brief glimpse of freedom and hope. He does this of course to great cost to himself, but to him it is worth it.

I'm not entirely sure why he played the record, or why he refused to stop when ordered to do so. I've several ideas on that.

Quote: Nareed

You haven't said anything that would make Andy selfless.

My analysis of the roof scene, which shows him sitting back enjoying watching his fellow inmates enjoy a beer so he can just feel normal again. This was a selfless act and it reveals the character of Andy as the eventual redeemer of Shawshank.

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Despite your misgivings, I have seen the movie several times. I know how far he foes to get a library.

So you know then that he certainly wasn't doing all that just for himself to have a library.

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I'm not entirely sure why he played the record, or why he refused to stop when ordered to do so. I've several ideas on that.

All kidding aside I am amazed at your ability to avoid seeing sacrifice or selflessness as present in things or as a good.

Quote: FrGamble

My analysis of the roof scene, which shows him sitting back enjoying watching his fellow inmates enjoy a beer so he can just feel normal again. This was a selfless act and it reveals the character of Andy as the eventual redeemer of Shawshank.

I know the guy who plays Andy is a sanctimonious, unpleasant man, but that's no reason to take it out on the character he plays. I think he did a rather good job.

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So you know then that he certainly wasn't doing all that just for himself to have a library.

And when I sell a story it's not just for myself, that doesn't mean my motives aren't selfish (hint: my motives are always selfish).

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All kidding aside I am amazed at your ability to avoid seeing sacrifice or selflessness as present in things or as a good.

I also fail to see cyanide and strychnine as food, or even Communism as desirable.

Quote: FrGamble

All kidding aside I am amazed at your ability to avoid seeing sacrifice or selflessness as present in things or as a good.

And you see sacrifice when none is present.
I still have no idea what Jesus gave up on
the cross. If he gave his life, why is that any
more sacred than the soldier and the grenade.
That was a true sacrifice, he knew he wasn't
god.

Let's not derail this thread too much but the guy jumping on the grenade, assuming he is a man of faith, knows he is going to be okay too. The difference is Jesus is God who has freely out of love become man. The Incarnation in itself is a sacrifice, then you add the physical sacrifice of dying to save us (like the soldier), then you add the mental and emotional sacrifice of knowing that your sacrifice throughout time would be rejected by some people, and it adds up to the greatest act of love imaginable. There is a reason why Jesus Christ has impacted the world as He has.

Quote: FrGamble

The Incarnation in itself is a sacrifice,

No offense, but that feels like you're saying God was slummin'.

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There is a reason why Jesus Christ has impacted the world as He has.

Oh, indeed there must be. Not one, though. More likely many.

If I find the, uh, intestinal fortitude for it, I might just delve deeply into the histories and structures of religion and look for the causes. I doubt I ever will. I've ruled out fear of death, though. Most religions before Christianity, with one exception, paid little mind to the afterlife, if they even had any. The exception is Egypt. Their fixation with the afterlife shaped everything from society to foreign policy.

But we're drifting off topic.

Let's talk about Norton, the pious. He's so foul-mouthed and mean, and he exercises his abuse of power so blatantly it's easy to hate him. remarkably he doesn't wind up as a cardboard cut-out villain. Consider he's corrupt (and how!), he murders Andy's protégé to protect his corruption, among other things.

Yet the scene that made me want to kick him hard was one near the end. Andy's working late, as usual, after returning from extended time in solitary confinement. Things, as far as Norton is concerned, are returning to normal. He then tells Andy "Lickety split. I want to get home."

That got me into a white hot fury, or as much of one as can be directed at a fictional character.