Easter Is Coming in 8 Weeks

Quote: FrGamble

Without the Resurrection there would have been no Christianity.

"The consensus among critical scholars today appears to be that the story is a "legend." During the 60-70 years it took for the Gospels to be composed, the original story went through a growth period that began with the unadorned idea that Jesus, like Grandma, had "died and gone to heaven" and ended with a fantastic narrative produced by a later generation of believers that included earthquakes, angels, an eclipse, a resuscitated corpse, and a spectacular bodily ascension into the clouds. The earliest Christians believed in the "spiritual" resurrection of Jesus. The story evolved over time into a "bodily" resurrection.' Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead?
by Dan Barker

That's pretty much what happened. As the legend
grew, they added more and more to it, as people
always do. It became an urban legend, that's why
more and more Christians are thinking it never
really happened. How could it.

Quote: Dalex64

You can't torture the truth out of someone who does not know what the truth is.

There are lots of theories out there explaining what, other than a ressurrection, could have happened. Any of them that doesn't involve a conspiracy by the apostles could have the apostles sincerely believing that Jesus was raised.

I am not saying that the resurrection did not happen. I am saying that if the first group of people believed that it happened, and the next group of people believed them, and so on and so forth, that it doesn't matter if it actually happened or not.

So, they could believe in the resurrection because it actually happened, or the could believe in the resurrection because something happened beyond their perception that led them to believe that it happened.

Here is a nice debate on http://www.reasonablefaith.org/

Dalex thank you for your reasonable post and the excellent link, I can't tell you how refreshing that is. I hope people check out the link (I'm looking at you Evenbob). By the way, for some reason you have to click on "debate on" for it to take you to the site. It is a good debate and both sides make their point. I am utterly convinced, duh, by the points of Dr. Craig.

Quote: FrGamble

I hope people check out the link (I'm looking at you Evenbob). .

I read most of it. I felt sorry for the
guy making the case for the rising
of Jesus. He was like a kid talking
to a patient expert.

"I think one reason Bill didn’t want to answer is because the non-canonical sources don’t bear out his position. The non- canonical pagan sources in fact never refer to the resurrection of Jesus until centuries later. Jesus actually never appears in any non-canonical pagan source until 80 years after his death. So clearly he didn’t make a big impact on the pagan world. The Jewish historian Josephus mentions Jesus but didn’t believe in his resurrection. There are non-canonical Christian sources that talk about the resurrection, but unfortunately virtually all of them that narrate the event, although they are non-canonical Gospels, narrate the event in a way that disagrees with Bill’s reconstruction. They don’t believe that Jesus was physically, bodily raised from the dead."

What's really significant is, the virgin birth,
miracle worker, healing the sick, exorcised
devils, dies and rises from the grave and
ascended to heaven, is a story that shows
up a bunch of times before the early
Christians stole it. It's common that a god
does these things in ancient lore.

Quote: FrGamble

The problem is if there was no resurrection then either the belief in it would be false or made up,

And this surprises you. Of course it's made up.

Quote:

either way it wouldn't last past a generation,

If there were nothing to astrology it would have died out a long time ago. Oh, wait.

Quote: Nareed

If there were nothing to astrology it would have died out a long time ago. Oh, wait.

I never would have thought of that, Nareed. Astrology
can be traced back 2000 years before Jesus, and it
has more followers today than ever. Yet it's pure
nonsense, absolute bunk, pseudoscience at it's
worst.

The padre likes to say his religion must be true, look
at all the people that it converted in the last 2000
years. Look how many people signed onto astrology
in the last 4000 years, and it's garbage. It's the perfect
example that people will believe anything, as long
as lots of others believe it to.

33% of Americans still believe in it today, and 50%
read their horoscopes in the paper and online if
they believe in it or not. Worldwide there are more
astrology believers than Christians.

So could the resurrection be an urban legend? Very
easily and very probably. Anything else would need
a suspension of disbelief that boggles the mind.

Quote: Nareed

If there were nothing to astrology it would have died out a long time ago. Oh, wait.

What an awful comparison, that's like saying look how many people still collect baseball cards. Can you name anyone who has died for their faith in astrology? Looking at a horoscope does not equal accepting Jesus into your life and having that real transforming relationship with Him.

Quote: FrGamble

What an awful comparison.

Ha! I knew you'd balk at this, but it's a
really good comparison. Astrology is
not a religion, but to many people it
almost is. The point is, it has zero validity
and is 4000 years old. Yet 1/3 of Americans
and half the world still give it credibility!

People will believe anything, no matter how
ridiculous, if lots of other people believe
it too. That's a fact of life. People are gullible,
they're followers, they're ego driven. They
get their ego fix from organized religion and
things like astrology. It's all about them.

Even the confessional is set up as an ego trip.
Go into the booth, spill your guts to the
father who really cares about all the boring
and tedious details of your boring and tedious
life. Me me me, it keeps them coming back
for more.

Quote: FrGamble

What an awful comparison,

Thanks!

We're talking about belief. Astrology has no rational basis, and everything about it is made up. Yet it has been around for several times longer than Christianity.

What about non-christian religeons? A few of those lasted for a significant amount of time. Some of them are still around. Christians say they are wrong, they have false beliefs. They have been persecuted through the ages. Yet they persist. The Jews even believe in the same god as the Christians, and reject Jesus as a diety.

Quote: Dalex64

What about non-christian religeons? A few of those lasted for a significant amount of time.

The good father has many times stated his belief these were all proto-Christian religions, as God revealed himself gradually. One assumes this would include religions that regularly engaged in human sacrifices, such as all the Meso-American religions (Aztecs, Maya, Toltecs, Inca etc.), and all the animistic religions as well (those that worship aspects of nature as gods)

Quote:

They have been persecuted through the ages. Yet they persist. The Jews even believe in the same god as the Christians, and reject Jesus as a diety.

Since Jews were persecuted a great deal more than any Christians, that would make Judaism truer, yes?