Do it yourself

November 2nd, 2019 at 9:20:40 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Quote: Tanko
Hepa filters are better than Hazardous ozone generators, that do nothing to purify the air, and only create a toxic gas that can permanently damage the lungs.


I remember looking at the other kind of air purifiers when I first started seeing them, but saw mixed reviews, so stayed away. Still using my box fan and 20x20 filter setup. Used it last night in fact.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
November 5th, 2019 at 8:57:38 AM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: kenarman

Yes Face the electricity has to get back to the battery and for many of the parts that use it that path is through the frame. I assume when vehicles were first invented the inventor said 'hey I can save time and money I will just use the metal frame as a wire to return the electricity to the battery'. We have suffered with poor grounding connections ever since. The grounding you do with 120 volt in your home is for a completely different reason and has nothing to do with this conversation.

To get back to your water analogy think of the battery as your pump with a very small reservoir and the water must return to the pump for it to keep pumping. The equipment that is using the electricity is like a little turbine being spun by the electricity as it goes through on the way back to the pump (battery). The water analogy breaks down the more you try to use it so don't take it to far, it will just confuse you more.


Thanks for the time, ken. Wasn't ignoring you, I took what you said and jumped back into it. Jesus, what a hack job mess. More than half the wires had been cut previously for reasons I don't understand. There's no accessories to put on, and highly doubtful any could get caught and snapped, but most were compromised and 100% of the fixes were trash. The ground had...I dunno what they're called. Little plastic tubes with metal tube inside. Put a wire in each end and crimp. That's it. No solder, no shrink, not even any tape. Just a $0.17 piece crammed full of clay. Others used f#$%ing WIRETAPS. Just squeeze the wires together and *snap*. Others... get this... others were twisted and soldered, then had some of the conduit cut and put between them so they wouldn't short, then were glob taped together. Just raw, open weld for the most part, all full of clay. I don't even know how long it took, other than "a half tank of kero". Effing disaster.

And after it all, I got my starter to work occasionally without jumping the relay (which is the state I was in before the fail), but still can't get 'er to fire. I'm down to the last few options, and I come back for one more bit of clarity.

I'll drop the water analogy going forward because I know what you mean. I've tried the V = "pressure" and A = "volume" analogies before lol. But I do need to go back to it for this last part...

Let's go back to our simple circuit example. Battery > wire > light > wire > battery. That's our circuit. Let's say it we break it and we're giving it to a student to fix it. As the teacher, we've broken it at the last step in our example; the wire from the light has a bad return connection to the battery.

My question is does the water analogy hold for this example? I know if we test at the battery, we'll get juice (obv). My question is, does the break shut the whole process down, not allowing the "water" out of the "pump" at all, or will we be able to get a reading at the battery, in the first wire, in the light... and then find the last wire empty because that's where the fault is? With everything else eliminated, this ignorance is preventing me from digging into the stator assembly.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:04:38 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
I had one of these when I was a kid.

https://www.ebay.com/i/312470412566?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=312470412566&targetid=539174360115&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9016854&poi=&campaignid=6470648147&mkgroupid=74956728902&rlsatarget=pla-539174360115&abcId=1139336&merchantid=6391654&gclid=Cj0KCQiA2ITuBRDkARIsAMK9Q7NCaRIIP5YGWaoy-DYZyOi8yQVJ2OuOpmzYTx93q-n8JhJLMTaKGjUaAimfEALw_wcB

In the case where you describe, where the last wire is broken, connecting one end of your volt meter to the negative terminal of the battery, you would measure full battery voltage at the + terminal of the battery, on either end of the wire connected to the battery, and full battery voltage on EACH side of the LIGHT!

Actually the voltage will be imperceptibly lower on the far side of the light, but the light will not light due to a very low voltage drop across the bulb, and the very high resistance of the voltmeter resulting in very low current.

This is because the voltmeter itself will be completing the circuit!

http://www.furryelephant.com/content/electricity/voltage-current/voltmeter-in-series/

If you connected the voltmeter between the positive terminal of the battery and to each side of the light, you would see no voltage drop - meaning that all of the potential of the battery is at the far side of the light. In effect, the electricity has 'energized' the top half of the circuit, and is just waiting for somewhere to go.

So really the result is the same either way - the full potential is there and waiting - but the load won't light or run until the circuit is completed.

You could also trace continuity of the circuit with the battery disconnected (continuity tests on a live circuit can get really weird)
continuity across loads isn't reliable. On a low-resistance load like a lightbulb, it would show continuity, but on a high resistance load it would show a discontinuity. The continuity test works by having the voltmeter provide a voltage across the probes, but the voltmeter is current limited, so you would be trying to drive a load from the voltmeter and it wouldn't work, nor would it appear to be continuous.

So anyway, to summarize that last paragraph, testing continuity across a load can be inconclusive and depends on several other factors.

If you want more analogies for water, you can think of it as a waterslide, and a water pump as the battery. It pumps water to the top, so the water gains potential energy (Voltage) The taller the slide, the higher the potential, the higher the voltage. The volume of water and the speed of the water are current and wattage, but I'm not sure which is which in the analogy. I could do a dimensional analysis, but that's too much work for right now. The water then flows back to the pump for another lift.
But this analogy also quickly breaks down, in that no water will flow unless there is a completed and closed path the whole way.

One of the easier things to check would be to test continuity between the negative post of the battery (or the negative wire, with the battery disconnected), and all of the ground connections on the various pieces of stuff in the circuit.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
November 5th, 2019 at 10:17:28 AM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: Face
And after it all, I got my starter to work occasionally without jumping the relay
Wouldn't that make you suspect the relay ?

Quote:
I'll drop the water analogy going forward because I know what you mean. I've tried the V = "pressure" and A = "volume" analogies before lol. But I do need to go back to it for this last part...

Let's go back to our simple circuit example. Battery > wire > light > wire > battery. That's our circuit. Let's say it we break it and we're giving it to a student to fix it. As the teacher, we've broken it at the last step in our example; the wire from the light has a bad return connection to the battery.

My question is does the water analogy hold for this example? I know if we test at the battery, we'll get juice (obv). how much juice ?My question is, does the break shut the whole process down, not allowing the "water" out of the "pump" at all, or will we be able to get a reading at the battery, in the first wire, in the light... and then find the last wire empty because that's where the fault is? With everything else eliminated, this ignorance is preventing me from digging into the stator assembly.
If the first wire [hose] were broken, the water would flow out to wherever gravity takes it or it is stopped, collected, evaporated or used. The water analogy is closer if you think of the wire [hose] as pinched and not broken open. The juice will be pressurized right up until the pinch?

A leak or hole in the line could be like a bad connection with some of the voltage [pressure] leaking out. This is like a "straw" electric theory argument, : ).

With the broken wire/hose situation, you can test with a continuity meter to see if you have a connection. , if there is no voltage in the circuit. When switched on, have a light in series with clips at either end, go around and stab at different points with one end connected back to the battery's neg terminal. That should tell you where the end of the line is for pressure/voltage.

If you start testing a stator, you aren't going to be making contact with any part of a capacitor or live coil, or transormer I hope? Also, capacitors can hold a charge after they are disconnected from the line! The voltage can be many muliples of the line, that's why there was always a warning on old tv sets, and microwaves. I feel like were getting to the point where I should add a disclaimer? : )
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
November 5th, 2019 at 10:26:47 AM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: petroglyph

If you start testing a stator, you aren't going to be making contact with any part of a capacitor or live coil, or transormer I hope? Also, capacitors can hold a charge after they are disconnected from the line! The voltage can be many muliples of the line, that's why there was always a warning on old tv sets, and microwaves. I feel like were getting to the point where I should add a disclaimer? : )


LOL! You're getting ahead of me. This is why I saved it for last, you see. I've arced a battery when I was knee deep in water before. Feels like a spider's crawling on you, maybe a deer fly bite at worst. But I remember f#$%ing around with a jacked up ignition before, and I remember poking it. Dunno what happened next but next thing I remembered I was about 5' away on my back lol. That's why I saved this for last. And since ER copays are $50 and wheeler labor runs $85/hr...

Thanks for the effort, Dalex. Reckon I'm gonna have to read that about 10 times, but it's already helping.

ETA:
Quote: petroglyph
Wouldn't that make you suspect the relay ?


I already bypassed it. Didn't help. I just returned it to its original state. That didn't help either.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:41:38 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
I had a lot of fun with that electronics experimenter kit.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
November 5th, 2019 at 11:37:26 AM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: Face
LOL! You're getting ahead of me. This is why I saved it for last, you see. I've arced a battery when I was knee deep in water before. Feels like a spider's crawling on you, maybe a deer fly bite at worst. But I remember f#$%ing around with a jacked up ignition before, and I remember poking it. Dunno what happened next but next thing I remembered I was about 5' away on my back lol. That's why I saved this for last. And since ER copays are $50 and wheeler labor runs $85/hr...

Thanks for the effort, Dalex. Reckon I'm gonna have to read that about 10 times, but it's already helping.

ETA:


I already bypassed it. Didn't help. I just returned it to its original state. That didn't help either.
Did you watch this one?
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
November 5th, 2019 at 11:43:31 AM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: Dalex64
......The continuity test works by having the voltmeter provide a voltage across the probes,....
It's not voltage, it's signal.
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
November 5th, 2019 at 1:18:05 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: petroglyph
It's not voltage, it's signal.


I have not seen one that does not merely complete a circuit using the probes.

In a cheap multimeter, that just completes the connection of a single 1.5v dc battery to either an led, the sweep meter, or a transistor controlling a beeper.

Here are several designs

https://www.brighthubengineering.com/diy-electronics-devices/67224-build-yourself-a-simple-continuity-tester/

Also, a signal has voltage.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
November 5th, 2019 at 4:24:19 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: petroglyph
Did you watch this one?


I have now, thanks for that. That made sense first time through. Let's add yours and Dalex's other posts into this. I'm going to attempt to make some true statements. Follow along and correct me if you will to see if I've got this so far...

First, my issue is a spark plug, which unlike a simple light, requires a clean shot of high power to function, as opposed to a light which will work if a just trickle gets through. As such, my problem could be EITHER a broken circuit caused by faulty ground / broken wire / bad connection / bad part, OR it could be voltage drop due to bad connection / short / wire seep / etc. That sound right? Pretty sure it's solid on the auto side (some power but not enough could mean no spark), I'm just making sure the magic side is sound.

So I've got to find out which. If I've got this right, then there's two ways, one for each possible problem. For a too low voltage situation, I would use the above voltmeter test from the video. Test the battery to get my base, then start testing connections and implements downstream from there between connection points. That makes sense to ensure power's getting where it needs to be, and I'm already aware that while the batt maybe ~13v, the different implements' values may be severely different. A TPS, for example, ranges from 0.0v to ~ 4.8v, depending on throttle position. So make sure I'm still around 13v everywhere leading up to whatever device, then ensure I get the proper readings FROM that device. Sounds good and familiar. But if that's correct... thinking out loud here... this test has to be done with the power ON. So if I try, and I get nothing... and I know the batt is charged... then it's a continuity problem... yes?

And for THAT, I would use an ohmmeter with the power OFF. And with this I should be able to see if a wire is whole and the connection secure (no resistance), see that devices are sound (their prescribed resistances) or whether the circuit itself is entirely broken (complete resistance).

That sounds right? Tell me it's right.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.