Bombardier CS300

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February 28th, 2015 at 8:28:34 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Bombardierof Canada flew it's CS 300 fpr the first time today. The aircraft which seats 160 is in direct competition with Airbus 319 (currently Airbus's smallest jet). Although the CS300 matches in size some of the earlier versions of Boeing 737s, I believe that Boeing is only making larger planes today.

Airbus only has 39 orders for their current A319, and 49 orders for their neoA310 which is miniscule compared to the 5000 orders for the A320, A321, neoA320 and neo A321. So Bombardier is just nipping at their tales so far.

But Bombardier hopes to sell thousands of these CS300s . Soon they may upsize to the heart of Boeing and Airbus's profit center. Brazil's Embraer is close behind, and the upstarts in Russia, China and Japan may come along shortly.
March 1st, 2015 at 4:59:31 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 49
Posts: 4703
Quote: Pacomartin
So Bombardier is just nipping at their tales so far.
Tails. Unless of course you were referring to an Airbus salesman's projections in which case it probably would be tales.

Bombardier... yeah. Can't go wrong backing a manufacturer of planes that makes pilots salivate.
March 1st, 2015 at 6:34:58 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 722
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Quote: Fleastiff
Tails. Unless of course you were referring to an Airbus salesman's projections in which case it probably would be tales.


Middle age dyslexia. You start making grammar errors that you couldn't have made in the 9th grade.

The CS300 (max 160 seats) is getting a lot more attention than the CS100 (max 125 seats). Even in a single class, most airlines don't fill more than 90% maximum certified. Spirit Airlines is putting 145 seats in their A319.

Bombardier is claiming as high as 117 miles per gallon per seat (100km per 2 liters) fuel economy.

With a max range of 5,463 km (4384 km from Miami to Seattle) .

It is possible that Airbus could lose the entire A319 market to Bombardier and Embraer. An A319neo will be approx. US$94.4 million and should be available within a year. A CS300 will be approx US$ 71 million (25% less).

The Embraer E195-E2 will have 144 seats (1-class, high-density) so it will in between the CS100 and CS300.
March 1st, 2015 at 9:39:41 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 49
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Quote: Pacomartin
Middle age dyslexia. You start making grammar errors that you couldn't have made in the 9th grade.
Yes, I feel so foolish with my constant confusion with their/there ... never had any problems with it in school.

Bombardier and Embraer are names I know and trust.
Airbus is simply not one that I trust. Not for their philosophy of Fly By Wire and not for their Government/Private facade.

Accidents? Heck, you build planes for the frozen wastelands of the Canadian far north, you have to build good ones!
Embraer? Mostly pilot error.

Airbus... I still don't like Fly By Wire. I never will.
March 1st, 2015 at 1:15:43 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
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Lots of modern jets other than Airbus are now fly by wire, including the Boeing 777, 787, Bombardier C Series, various Embraers. The 747-8 is getting partial fly by wire.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
March 1st, 2015 at 1:24:04 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 722
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Quote: Fleastiff
Heck, you build planes for the frozen wastelands of the Canadian far north, you have to build good ones!
Embraer? Mostly pilot error.
Airbus... I still don't like Fly By Wire. I never will.


From order situation it looks like Airbus shouldn't even be building a new (neo) version of the A319. At the much lower price It does have a longer range, but it is not clear if airlines want to fly that far with such a small jet. Perhaps, the business version is the motivation.

------------------------
A319neo Maximum range, fully loaded 4,200 nmi
CS300 Maximum range, fully loaded 2,950 nmi

CS100 35.0 m - 125 max passengers : 63 orders
CS300 38.7 m - 160 max : 180 orders

A319 33.84 m - 156 max : orders 39 ceo, 49 neo
A320 37.57 m - 180 max : prders 2817 ceo, 893 neo
A321 44.51 m - 220 max : orders 755 ceo, 546 neo

737-700 : 95 orders
737-900ER : 215 orders
737-800 : 1260 orders
737-800A : 28 orders
737 MAX : 2663 orders (deliveries beginning in 2017)

BBJ : 4 orders
BBJ3 : 1 order
737-700C : 3 orders

ceo is present version of Airbus airframs, neo is future version

================
Interestingly enough Frontier Airlines shows up prominently on both order lists.

Airbus 319neo (all orders)
19 AVIANCA HOLDINGS COLOMBIA
18 FRONTIER AIRLINES UNITED STATES
12 UNDISCLOSED

CS300 three largest orders
40 Republic Airways Holdings
40 Macquarie AirFinance
32 Ilyushin Finance Co.
March 2nd, 2015 at 8:51:12 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 49
Posts: 4703
Aerospace-technolgy dot com

Bombardier CS300 is a wide-bodied, single-aisle, long-range passenger jetliner that will offer low fuel consumption, fewer operating costs and an unmatched environmental performance. The CS300 can accommodate 130 to 145 passengers with two flight crew.

SEE ARTICLE FOR REMAINDER


NOTE: FBW is okay but that envelope protection is what the Airbus has to over ride the pilots inputs. Its high time there were data links rather than voice links for clearances and ATC, wonder if other planes will have to upgrade by any deadline?

>>>>The CS300 jetliner will feature a more spacious and comfortable cabin for the passengers on-board.
They ALL say that.

>>>The dual-class division will have 120 seats with a 0.91m seat pitch.
>>>The standard single class and high-density single class will be 130 seats 0.81m pitch, and 145 seats 0.76m pitch.
September 8th, 2017 at 4:26:15 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 722
Posts: 8413
The Bombardier CS100 (125 seats) and CS300 (145 seats) are operating fourteen jets on two different airlines,

airBaltic: 5 CS300
Swiss Global Air: 8 CS100 and 1 CS300

The Wall Street Journal did an article that basically said airlines were not enthusiastic about the 5 seats across (18.5" width) preferring the 17" of the B737 or 18" of the A320 (both with 6 seats across).



The CS series could alternatively be configured with 18" seats and give the one middle seat 19" to make it more comfortable.

I thought the article was a bit negative. Breaking the Boeing/Airbus duopoly was never going to be easy. Bombardier has 17 orders totaling 123 CS100s and 237 CS300s. It is true that there is only one order from a USA airliner (Delta 75 CS100s).

While it is true that Bombardiers 360 jets on order is tiny compared to the total number of B737max (3,816 orders) and A320neo (5,168 orders) the article does not mention that the smallest variant that Bombardier is competing against has only 50 orders for Boeing and 51 orders for Airbus.

Personally I don't think either Boeing or Airbus are going to set up an assembly line for such small orders. They will probably try and encourage their customers to upgage.

Interestingly enough the CS100 is being configured with a business class where the seats do not offer radically more room than economy. Just better service.
September 8th, 2017 at 7:24:21 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 323
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Quote: Pacomartin
The Wall Street Journal did an article that basically said airlines were not enthusiastic about the 5 seats across (18.5" width) preferring the 17" of the B737 or 18" of the A320 (both with 6 seats across).


In the end the airlines are enthusiastic about how much revenue a plane generates.

It's too early to say, but once Delta and Air Canada begin operating theirs, we'll know better what the plane can accomplish.

Quote:
While it is true that Bombardiers 360 jets on order is tiny compared to the total number of B737max (3,816 orders) and A320neo (5,168 orders) the article does not mention that the smallest variant that Bombardier is competing against has only 50 orders for Boeing and 51 orders for Airbus.


The C series won't compete directly with the A320-1 or the 737 MAX 8 and 9. So, as you point out, that's the wrong metric to use. On the other hand, it is the first new mainline narrow body design since the 1980s. That's quite a gap. we may know how big a gap once the planes operate in North America.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
September 8th, 2017 at 11:17:52 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 722
Posts: 8413
Quote: Nareed
In the end the airlines are enthusiastic about how much revenue a plane generates.

Because Bombardier did a bottom up design, the fuel economy of the C series is so much better the per seat

But there is that familiar trade off between number size of plane and frequency of flights
Number of seats - Model - (Miles per gallon per seat)
154 Airbus A320neo (104.7 mpg‑US)
192 Airbus A321neo (107.4 mpg‑US)
166 Boeing 737 MAX 8 (103.2 mpg‑US)
180 Boeing 737 MAX 9 (103 mpg‑US)
140 Bombardier CSeries 300 (123 mpg‑US)

Air Baltic chose to put the 19" seat in the center. This travel writer felt very comfortable in it, and felt it was a good compensation for getting stuck in the middle
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