Bombardier CS300

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September 8th, 2017 at 12:39:21 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Pacomartin
But there is that familiar trade off between number size of plane and frequency of flights


But then you go against load factors. I figure a CS100 would be more likely to have a higher such factor than an A320 or 737 in certain routes. What's the fuel average per passenger for a 180-passenger 737 with only 140 people on board? I think that's why you read more about costs and revenue per passenger than per seat.

Interesting times.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
September 8th, 2017 at 4:24:47 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
But then you go against load factors. I figure a CS100 would be more likely to have a higher such factor than an A320 or 737 in certain routes.


You have to persuade an airline that they can increase load factors with a different choice of equipment. Since many people fly in pairs, with the CS300 the first 29 pairs of flyers that reserve seats get to sit together on the side of the plane with only 2 seats together. Depending on the seat configuration, the next 29 pairs are stuck with one person in the middle seat, but if it is 19" that isn't as bad. With the B737 if you want to sit together, then one person has to have a middle seat everytime.

Bombardier is trying to persuade airlines that they will have less trouble selling higher load factors with a 5 seat per row configuration. They are more likely have happy customers that will return.

If you want to look at the fuel economy of the aircraft (independent of the number of passengers) it is:
Boeing 737 MAX-8 9.60 lb/mile
Bombardier CS300 8.17 lb/mile

But a lot of the decisions have more to do with trends. Since April 11, 2012 every aircraft delivered to Southwest has had 175 seats. They are not likely to go back to 145 seat aircraft.
September 8th, 2017 at 5:52:13 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Pacomartin
You have to persuade an airline that they can increase load factors with a different choice of equipment. Since many people fly in pairs, with the CS300 the first 29 pairs of flyers that reserve seats get to sit together on the side of the plane with only 2 seats together. Depending on the seat configuration, the next 29 pairs are stuck with one person in the middle seat, but if it is 19" that isn't as bad. With the B737 if you want to sit together, then one person has to have a middle seat everytime.


When I flew YVR to San Diego last winter I choice an Air Canada flight with a smaller Bombardier plane which had a 2 - 2 configuration for that very reason. No need to worry about a middle seat and it was not any more expensive.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
September 8th, 2017 at 6:19:24 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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United Express has 65 Bombardier CRJ-700 with 70 seats .
Envoy Air 30 Bombardier CRJ-700 with 63-65 seats

Bombardier has delivered 811 CRJ700, CRJ900, and CRJ1000 around the world (first flight 27 May 1999).

But the Embraer E-Jet family carrying 80 to 124 passengers commercially, has sold 1352 jets (first flight February 19, 2002)

The Embraer E195 will carry up to 124 passengers, so it competes with the Bombardier CS100 which also carries 125 passengers.

But Bombardier is convinced that the CS300 which carries 145 passengers and can thus compete with the smallest version of the 737Max and the A319 neo is the key to their long term profitability.

Embraer considered producing an aircraft which was known as the E195X. It would have seated approximately 130 passengers. Embraer abandoned plans for the 195X in May 2010, following concerns that its range would be too short.
September 9th, 2017 at 8:17:39 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Pacomartin
You have to persuade an airline that they can increase load factors with a different choice of equipment.


My thinking is that a lower passenger capacity allows you to fill a higher percentage of seats.

Quote:
Since many people fly in pairs, with the CS300 the first 29 pairs of flyers that reserve seats get to sit together on the side of the plane with only 2 seats together. Depending on the seat configuration, the next 29 pairs are stuck with one person in the middle seat, but if it is 19" that isn't as bad. With the B737 if you want to sit together, then one person has to have a middle seat everytime.


You'll find most people don't care what plane they get to fly, even with tools like Seat Guru and Routehappy available. I've found this to be true even of frequent fliers, who really ought to know better.

BTW, as I recall, some 727 and DC-9 variants up til the late 70s were also 2-3 seating. The Sukhoi Superjet is configured like this as well.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
September 9th, 2017 at 11:30:55 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Well the Bombardier CS100 is also going to get competition with the Sukhoi Superjet 130 by 2020.
Embraer's E195-E2 variant rolled out on 7 March 2017 and deliveries planned for the Brazilian airline Azul in 2019. However, the Embraer 195 only has 7 fewer seats than the CS100.

Azul Brazilian Airlines Fleet of Embraers
10 Embraer E190 106 seats
60 Embraer E195 118 seats
30 Embraer E195-E2 TBA seats (up to 144)

But Azul also plans on purchasing over fifty neoA320 with 175 seats.


The Chinese Comac C919 can carry 156 to 168 passengers in a usual operating configuration up to 3,000 nautical miles .
The order book is now 600 jets from 24 leasing companies or airlines with 23 being Chinese and 1 American engine provider GE.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardaboulafia/2017/05/08/a-reality-check-on-chinas-c919-jetliner/#31bcaf9c195f
Forbes concludes that the first flight of the C919 should not make Airbus or Boeing especially nervous.
September 11th, 2017 at 7:02:39 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 344
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Quote: Pacomartin
Well the Bombardier CS100 is also going to get competition with the Sukhoi Superjet 130 by 2020.
Embraer's E195-E2 variant rolled out on 7 March 2017 and deliveries planned for the Brazilian airline Azul in 2019. However, the Embraer 195 only has 7 fewer seats than the CS100.


That's all to the good. The mainline narrow body has suffered from lack of competition for far too long. Granted that different varieties are always more plentiful when a technology is young, Airbus and Boeing have been coasting on the same basic design for decades.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
September 11th, 2017 at 11:08:45 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
That's all to the good. The mainline narrow body has suffered from lack of competition for far too long.

Bombardier's CS300 can have up to 160 seats high density seating. The first two airlines have chosen 145 seats. Technically Bombardier is only competing with the MAX-7 variant (172 seats high density seating) for Boeing.


Boeing has only received orders from three airlines, and all three orders are almost 3 or more years old. Both Southwest and WestJet have placed larger orders for the MAX-8 variant


Boeing 737 Max -7 variant (smallest size)
30 jets December 13, 2011 Southwest Airlines (planned 150 seats)
15 jets September 26, 2013 WestJet (TBD planned seats)
5 jets December 11, 2014 Canada Jetlines (planned 172 seats)

Canada Jetlines doesn't even exist as of today, and they have conversion rights for the MAX 8 variant.

Given Bombardier's 360 orders, it seems very unlikely that Boeing will begin to produce the MAX 7 variant. It would seem easier to try to get the airlines to upgage to MAX8.
September 11th, 2017 at 12:33:29 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 344
Posts: 12473
Quote: Pacomartin
Bombardier's CS300 can have up to 160 seats high density seating. The first two airlines have chosen 145 seats. Technically Bombardier is only competing with the MAX-7 variant (172 seats high density seating) for Boeing.


That's still more competition than the duopoly has seen since Boeing ate their domestic competition.

The 737 design is played out, and it's likely Boeing's next narrow body will have to be clean slate. The A320 isn't played out and has room for a new variant or two after the neo generation gets old.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
September 11th, 2017 at 4:23:21 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
The 737 design is played out, and it's likely Boeing's next narrow body will have to be clean slate.


The clear lead that Airbus has over Boeing (especially in the larger longer range models) is directly related to being able to support engines with a larger fan diameter.

CFM International LEAP
1A Fan diameter: 78.0 in Airbus 24,50035,000 lbf | 2 Aug 2016
1B Fan diameter: 69.4 in Boeing 23,00028,000 lbf | 22 May 2017

Airbus 320 will also support the Pratt & Whitney
PW1000G Fan Diameter: 81 in Airbus 24,00035,000 lbf | January 2016

Orders are about evenly split among PW1000G and CFM International LEAP -1A for Airbus , but there are problems the PW engine. Spirit doesn't fly their jets above 30,000 ft because the bleed air system froze shut on occasion due to cold temperatures. IndiGo jets with PW engines have the same problem.

Orders Boeing 737 (CFM International LEAP-1B)
50 MAX7
2,050 MAX8 (only variant with 16 deliveries so far)
75 MAX9
252 MAX10
1,416 MAX TBD

I think it will take at least six years for Airbus to go through their backlog. They have been delivering 68 and 70 A320neos in their first two years.

Orders Airbus neo (CFM International LEAP-1A)
51 A319neo
3,688 A320neo (138 deliveries)
1,429 A321neo (6 deliveries)
5,168 Total

Quote: Nareed
The A320 isn't played out and has room for a new variant or two after the neo generation gets old.


I hadn't heard that. Since the A320 can support an 81" fan, that may be true.
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