Jesus & Horus. Coincidence?

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April 1st, 2015 at 7:20:54 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
I think what you are missing is exactly how valuable our lives truly are.


I think that's called projection.

Quote:
I don't understand the argument that it is okay or even smart to lie, cheat, break a vow, or do what you feel is wrong if it means you might avoid dying.


If you're going to misunderstand the argument, nothing can be discussed. I'm talking about situations where coercion is used. You owe nothing to someone using force to compel you to do something. It's perfectly moral to tell an armed robber you have no money on you, even if you're carrying your life's savings on your person.

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It does not strike me as a bad thing to have some convictions that we are willing to suffer for and even die for.


An arbitrary nonsense rule from an imaginary being isn't one of them.

Would you give up your life for the memory of Harry Potter, or Hari Seldon?
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April 1st, 2015 at 8:23:48 AM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Quote: FrGamble
It does not strike me as a bad thing to have some convictions that we are willing to suffer for and even die for.


So the extension of this Padre is that if I feel strongly enough about something then I can ignore what ever rules are in place to prevent it and do what ever I want. This is a very scary proposition. The reason that all religions have so many rules is to try and put some order into their society.

If I feel stongly and my religion backs me then I can: persecute gay people and women, behead whom ever I want, practice ethnic cleansing, give my children "lemonade".
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
April 1st, 2015 at 12:21:35 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: kenarman
If I feel stongly and my religion backs me then I can: persecute gay people and women, behead whom ever I want, practice ethnic cleansing, give my children "lemonade".


I have heard at least four definitions of what a "straw man" argument is, but one of them is to up the amperage of what your opponent is saying, and then attack the new proposition.

As I said earlier, as someone raised as an American Protestant, I was not really exposed to the culture of veneration of martyrdom, but it seems to me that the Father is just taking a very simple position that we should appreciate people who stand by their convictions even if they pay with their life. The word "martyr" means "witness", and they are a "witness to their beliefs".

We certainly give medals to soldiers who pay with their lives.

I do not see the extension of his comments to these extreme positions.
April 1st, 2015 at 1:05:40 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Nareed

If you're going to misunderstand the argument, nothing can be discussed. I'm talking about situations where coercion is used. You owe nothing to someone using force to compel you to do something. It's perfectly moral to tell an armed robber you have no money on you, even if you're carrying your life's savings on your person.


I don't know why coercion, threats, or force somehow make it okay to do something you feel strongly you should not do. I can easily see how such threats can make one less culpable or not culpable at all if someone does chose to go against their conscience. However, I think you may agree that in the face of such persecution if someone remains steadfast it can be very inspiring and noble. I'm not sure your example fits the situation. If an armed assailant told you to accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior would you do it?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
April 1st, 2015 at 3:04:27 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
A convert or die argument?

Does that have the same answer if you are being asked to convert TO christianity as well as FROM?
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
April 1st, 2015 at 3:24:57 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
I don't know why coercion, threats, or force somehow make it okay to do something you feel strongly you should not do.


It doesn't make it ok. It just makes you not morally liable for anything about it, because you did not act of your own free will.

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However, I think you may agree that in the face of such persecution if someone remains steadfast it can be very inspiring and noble.


I think you mean to say misguided and wasteful.

Quote:
If an armed assailant told you to accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior would you do it?


Sure, why not? It would mean absolutely nothing. Afterwards I'd call the cops and get the miscreant charged with assault and whatever else is possible under the law. I wouldn't agonize about it, I wouldn't think I'd done something wrong, and I wouldn't think for a thousandth of a femtosecond that I made any kind of commitment to a man dead two thousand years.

You want something harder? Get the hoodlum to make me say "The Cowboys are a decent football team" (not what I have in mind, but I can't make myself type it). I'd still do it, and it would mean nothing, but it would be hard to do.
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April 1st, 2015 at 5:02:29 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
A conversion under duress isn't worth the breath
it took to make it. That's what many Jews did
during the Inquisitions. They said sure, and went
right back to their previous ways. The Church
suspected this and followed up with various ways
of seeing if the forced conversion had taken hold.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 1st, 2015 at 5:58:29 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Pacomartin
[..]but it seems to me that the Father is just taking a very simple position that we should appreciate people who stand by their convictions even if they pay with their life.


It depends on what those convictions are.

When I think of men like Raoul Wallenberg, I can agree.

But if you have an allegedly all-merciful, loving god commanding death over mouthing meaningless words or performing meaningless actions, either your ideas of love and mercy are really odd, or you have an inverted sense of values. It means you value death over life, and more over that life is valuable only insofar as it may lead to a noble death.

Quote:
We certainly give medals to soldiers who pay with their lives.


See, this is where the nature of a conviction matters. All armies give medals to their soldiers, living and dead. This goes back, in one form or another, to at least Roman times, and likely much farther back than that.

The point is in WWII the allies awarded medals to their soldiers, yes. So did the Axis powers.
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April 1st, 2015 at 6:09:07 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Nareed

But if you have an allegedly all-merciful, loving god commanding death over mouthing meaningless words or performing meaningless actions, either your ideas of love and mercy are really odd, or you have an inverted sense of values. It means you value death over life, and more over that life is valuable only insofar as it may lead to a noble death.
.


The Church has always worshiped death. A dead
man hangs on a cross in the church, they proudly
turn dead men into martyrs and saints. The Vatican
brags about how many Christians are killed every
year. Everything good happens after you die.

The religion of death.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 1st, 2015 at 7:08:32 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Quote: FrGamble
I don't know why coercion, threats, or force somehow make it okay to do something you feel strongly you should not do. I can easily see how such threats can make one less culpable or not culpable at all if someone does chose to go against their conscience. However, I think you may agree that in the face of such persecution if someone remains steadfast it can be very inspiring and noble. I'm not sure your example fits the situation. If an armed assailant told you to accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior would you do it?


Not sure why we are making this such a hypothetical question. It is happening everyday in the wars in the Middle East right now with except the conversion is to Islam or possibly just your captors version of Islam.

If you are not willing to preserve your own life the pressure can then be put on a loved one or even some other random person(s). What is the right answer then Padre to this test of your faith????????????
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
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