Hockey Talk

Page 3 of 5<12345>
April 18th, 2015 at 3:20:27 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Looks like the league is paying more attention than they usually do to what is happening. Hartley (Calgary coach) was fined $50K for the brawl at the end of last nights game.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
April 18th, 2015 at 4:27:34 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
They'll have to do much more than that if they want to stop that sort of behavior.

But, I don't think they really do want to stop it. But they do want it to LOOK like they want to stop it.

Stu Grimson was a particularly articulate and intelligent enforcer. I don't have an exact quote handy, but the jist of it was he knew it was his job to discourage people from the other team for "taking liberties" with his star players.

He also answered once with what he thought about Chris Osgood the goalie having more goals on the season than he did. He replied that he thought it made perfect sense - after all, Chris Osgood gets much more ice time.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
April 18th, 2015 at 5:32:36 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Hockey is still a hard fought game and fighting will always be a part of it, but the day of the goon is gone for now. If you look around the league now in the day of analytics if a player can't produce other with his fists he is let go. Who knows if it is forever but right now it is considered more important to have a player that can play than fight. A tough player that can do both is, of course, still valued highly.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
April 19th, 2015 at 3:39:00 AM permalink
RonC
Member since: Nov 7, 2012
Threads: 8
Posts: 2452
I favor fourth liners who can actually play and produce to having a guy who knows what his job is when the coach taps him on the shoulder. The tough guys who can deliver some big hits, play decent defensively and give the three other lines a good breather...and throw some punches when necessary are much more valuable than the goon.
April 19th, 2015 at 8:00:57 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: RonC
I favor fourth liners who can actually play and produce to having a guy who knows what his job is when the coach taps him on the shoulder. The tough guys who can deliver some big hits, play decent defensively and give the three other lines a good breather...and throw some punches when necessary are much more valuable than the goon.


I agree.

Here are 4 "tough guys" who played between 750 and 1200 games in the nhl

links to http://www.hockey-reference.com/

Stu Grimson
Tie Domi
Bob Probert
Darren McCarty

Grimson only scored 17 goals in his career., +/- -41 ATOI 5:00
Domi 104/-54/10:02
Probert 163/-30/9:49
McCarty 127/+61/12:34

the last three guys had about the same average time on ice (ATOI) so you can pretty much compare their +/- numbers directly. If Stu was on the ice for 10 minutes, it might be reasonable to think that all of his stats would double, so his goals might have been 34 and his +/- might have been -82, if he was given that time on the ice.

Point being, you've got 4 tough guys, out there doing their tough guy roles, and three of them might be considered a scoreboard liability since you tend to give up more goals than you get when those guys are on the ice.

I can't tell from that page, but it would also be important to consider how many of their penalties in minutes resulted in putting their team shorthanded, vs offsetting PIMS for things like offsetting roughing, or fighting majors w/o an instigator penalty.

You can read a lot into stats, often too much - McCarty had a favorable +/-, but I think that he was often on a line with more skilled players, who did a lot of even strength scoring while he was on the ice.

Grimson definatley didn't get much of a chance to be on the ice with the scoring guys. Probert did a lot of the time. I'm not sure about Domi.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
April 19th, 2015 at 12:16:38 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Goons are dead. Tough guys still have a place, but the goons are gone for good. The rules have changed too much, the game has opened too much. Having a guy that can only inflict pain is now a liability.

Goons have been replaced by guys like Chara. You still have incentive to not take a shot, else a "six foot eight foot twelve" giant is going to punch your face. But said giant is also a first line, lights out defender that's gonna put goals on the tally. So the new "goon" is going to follow the mold set forth by the likes of Jeremy Roenick and Wendell Clark. Hard nosed with a soft touch.

Probert could cut it in today's NHL. He was a hockey player; he just also happened to be a psychopath. 60 points and 400 PIM in a season? That's legendary. Grimson, Domi, Twist, and the rest of that lot, not so much.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
April 20th, 2015 at 8:59:57 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
It looks like Las Vegas is proceeding with the "build it and they will come" strategy for getting an NHL team:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/12722195/no-las-vegas-nhl-expansion-team-likely-least-2017-18
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
April 21st, 2015 at 10:21:07 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: Dalex64
It looks like Las Vegas is proceeding with the "build it and they will come" strategy for getting an NHL team:
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/12722195/no-las-vegas-nhl-expansion-team-likely-least-2017-18


Not before QC =p

Hell of a game tonight in CHI vs NSH. Bout to go into the second OT. Crazy how damn near every playoff game is a barnburner worth watching. I can't say the same for foosball or NASCAR.

Rinne lost the puck in his gear for over two minutes, ain't ever seen that before. Thought they were gonna make him strip. He had his shirt up, refs were digging down into his legs, funny stuff =) And the dude is standing on his head to boot.

When I hung up my gear Monday I was contemplating retiring. 24hrs later and I'm ready to play again =p
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
April 26th, 2015 at 7:36:42 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Allez les Habitants!
Allez les TriColours!

Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
April 30th, 2015 at 8:18:50 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Whelp, what's everyone's thoughts right now?

I personally think ANA is taking the West all the way to the Cup. CHI is better than MIN, and they should've lost to NSH. I want CAL to take it, but I think ANA has it wrapped up.

The East... tougher. Totally want MON to take it, but I didn't see "Cup Winner" when I watched them against OTT.

As of now, I say we'll see a MON vs NYR, and the winner of that losing to ANA for the Cup.

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot to add... "You heard it here first" =p
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
Page 3 of 5<12345>