Reincarnation

My first thought was, I wonder if he is in Heaven yet? Why would you hope your friend has been randomly shuffled back into the deck of lives here on earth. First of all that would mean the end of your friend, he is no more and now a new person. You will never see him again or enjoy his friendship. Secondly what if he comes back as in a situation much worse?

I do happen to think you are on to something. We do instinctively seem to know that life continues and that we are going to be okay. Life continues on a straight line like everything else, not in painful and torturous circles. This is our hope - perfection, not a random restart.

Finally, I think you do a great disservice to religion and humanity by trying to convince people that it doesn't really matter what you do. By saying there is no final justice or consequences what you are really doing is allowing those in power to be free to stay there by any means necessary. That is truly scary, but thank God it is not true.

Quote: FrGamble

First of all that would mean the end of your friend,

Hardly the end. The essence of who he was,
his soul, moved on to another vessel. He's
not gone, his former body is.

Quote:

This is our hope - perfection, not a random restart.

Perfection only exists as an abstract idea. It's not real.

Quote:

By saying there is no final justice or consequences what you are really doing is allowing those in power to be free to stay there by any means necessary.

Consequence for something is in the present,
not later. The only justice is what we give out in
the here and now. The universe doesn't care
what you do, obviously. So man had to make
up invisible gods to scare people about justice
in the afterlife. It works on some people, prisons
worldwide are full of people it doesn't work on.

Quote:

That is truly scary, but thank God it is not true.

What's scary is Christians want justice and revenge
for what people have done wrong so badly, they
can't wait for them to get it. They rub their hands
together in glee contemplating people getting
what's coming to them in hell. I've seen it all
my life and so have you.

Quote: Evenbob

Hardly the end. The essence of who he was,
his soul, moved on to another vessel. He's
not gone, his former body is.

What makes us who we are as unique and unrepeatable human beings is all the things like our personalities, our history, our likes, interests, etc. If those things disappear we become just an amorphous blob.

Quote:

Perfection only exists as an abstract idea. It's not real.

If perfection didn't really exist how could you even conceive of the idea of it. It is real.

Quote:

Consequence for something is in the present,
not later. The only justice is what we give out in
the here and now.

This is an outrageous thought that means people can get away with literal murder. You can oppress the poor and needy and discriminate and enslave people, just don't get caught. It doesn't work that way. All that we do in the darkness is brought to the light and we are held ultimately accountable.

Quote:

It works on some people, prisons
worldwide are full of people it doesn't work on.

That is true. Prisons are full of people who thought they could get away with doing evil and it wouldn't catch up to them. They are full of people who forgot there is justice, on earth and in Heaven.

Quote:

What's scary is Christians want justice and revenge
for what people have done wrong so badly, they
can't wait for them to get it. They rub their hands
together in glee contemplating people getting
what's coming to them in hell. I've seen it all
my life and so have you.

I've said it many times before, you have a perverted idea of Christianity and you need to hang around some good Christians. Does your wife or her famly revel and enjoy the idea of people going to hell? I can tell you with certainty that they do not.

Quote: FrGamble

. If those things disappear we become just an amorphous blob.

You haven't spent much time around
little kids. Two year old's already have
set personalities, and they have little memory
or experience at anything. Experts have
long said 90% of who you are is set at
5 years old. There's something there
when you're born, something that's
'you', something that goes on after
your body dies.

Quote:

If perfection didn't really exist how could you even conceive of the idea of it. It is real.

Perfection is an ideal, not a thing. It's
not a goal. It's unachievable, that's the
point of the word.

Quote:

You can oppress the poor and needy and discriminate and enslave people, just don't get caught. It doesn't work that way.

It doesn't? Look around, you just described
the world. It's unfair. Crime pays. Bad people
often flourish. Inventing a god to level the
playing field looks good on paper. In reality,
it hasn't gotten rid of anything, it hasn't even
really slowed it down much.

Quote:

Does your wife or her famly revel and enjoy the idea of people going to hell? I can tell you with certainty that they do not.

There's a hell because it makes people feel
like there is justice ultimately. The justice
isn't later, it's now. Being a criminal forces
you to live a life in constant fear and paranoia.
You have nothing but stress, bad habits, and
probably awful friends. That's the punishment,
that, and possibly jail. If you want to think
theres more after you die, that's just to make
you feel better. It has no basis in reality.

Quote: Evenbob

Experts have
long said 90% of who you are is set at
5 years old. There's something there
when you're born, something that's
'you', something that goes on after
your body dies.

Okay, I agree. From conception we are unique and unrepeatable individuals with inestimable worth and dignity. This doesn't go away at death but continues on in the joys of Heaven.

Quote:

Perfection is an ideal, not a thing. It's
not a goal. It's unachievable, that's the
point of the word.

Perfection is a real thing, it is where we get the idea from. It is unattainable because of sin, but it is our destiny and goal. God will help us.

Quote:

It doesn't? Look around, you just described
the world. It's unfair. Crime pays. Bad people
often flourish.

You won't be able to get away with it after your death. All will be held accountable.

Quote:

The justice isn't later, it's now. Being a criminal forces
you to live a life in constant fear and paranoia.
You have nothing but stress, bad habits, and
probably awful friends. That's the punishment,
that, and possibly jail.

How do you square this statement with the quote you made immediately above it. You seem to be trying to say two different things to answer my one argument that we all hope and deep down know that there is ultimate justice for those who do evil. A tell tale sign that something is wrong is when you have to be inconsistent in responding to challenges.

Quote: FrGamble

This doesn't go away at death but continues on in the joys of Heaven.

That's not where the research is pointing.
We come back again to inhabit another
body.

Quote:

Perfection is a real thing, it is where we get the idea from.

It's unattainable because it's arbitrary. Perfect
according to who? My dog is perfect because
I say he is. You cannot argue against that.

Quote:

All will be held accountable.

By whom? My paternal parent who lives in
the sky? That's the story you tell children
and ignorant peasants who don't know any
better.

Quote:

that we all hope and deep down know that there is ultimate justice for those who do evil..

I never said that or implied it. When you
hit your thumb with a hammer you pay
the consequences now. When you slap
the face of the village bully in front of
everybody, you'll get yours in the present
moment. Yet if you commit a crime in
private, there don't seem to be any immediate
repercussions. So it must be that your daddy
in the sky is keeping track and you'll pay
for it later. Much like Santa keeps a list of
all the good girls and boys.

For most people, a criminal life is it's own
punishment, as I already listed. But many
are sociopaths, and they don't even suffer
ethical consequences. This really ticks off
religious types, hell must be especially bad
for them. If there were a hell..

Quote: Evenbob

It's unattainable because it's arbitrary. Perfect
according to who? My dog is perfect because
I say he is. You cannot argue against that.

Of course we can argue about perfect, but only if you are reasonable (which could be a challenge). For example if your dog is missing a few teeth it is not arbitrary that we can call this an imperfection, same thing if the dog walks with a limp, etc. In your love for your dog you look past these things put using our reason we all agree on what perfection is.

Quote:

By whom? My paternal parent who lives in
the sky? That's the story you tell children
and ignorant peasants who don't know any
better.

No that is the truth you tell to murders and child rapists.

Quote:

I never said that or implied it.

You have said this:

Quote: Evenbob

I have felt since I was a kid that reincarnation
would explain the unfairness of life. How
one child is born perfect, and another has
crippling defects. On the next rebirth, it
will be entirely different.

This seems to imply to me that you think reincarnation somehow leads to ultimate justice for those who do evil and bring about the fairness that you long for in your heart. You don't explain how this happens though because it leads to things like the caste system which is not only religious based but a disgusting idea. If reincarnation is just a random reshuffling then you are left in the unfortunate position of having someone who suffers in one life to just suffer more and more in the next life. Likewise you would have evil people being rewarded in their next life. So if reincarnation is going to help you deal with the unfairness you correctly notice in the universe it is going to have to be directed by someone or something, God perhaps?

Quote: FrGamble

Of course we can argue about perfect,

He's perfect in his imperfection.

Quote:

No that is the truth you tell to murders and child rapists.

Potential, you mean, when they are
kids. Telling it to criminals is usually
a waste of time.

Quote:

This seems to imply to me that you think reincarnation somehow leads to ultimate justice for those who do evil

Never said it nor was it implied. You
do like to read your way of thinking
into everything. I meant what I said.
At birth, life seems to be very unfair.
Kids are born with horrific defects
and even diseases that are a death
sentence. Blind, deaf, or both. Religions
answer is always 'Oh well, you only get
one life, god has a plan, this is his plan
for you. Tough luck, heaven is great
though'. What a crock.

Reincarnation levels the
playing field and your life goes on in
the next reincarnation. This is what science
is pointing to, unlike religion, which
gets all it's info from 2 to 3 thousand
year old urban legends.

Quote: Evenbob

I meant what I said.
At birth, life seems to be very unfair.
Kids are born with horrific defects
and even diseases that are a death
sentence. Blind, deaf, or both. Religions
answer is always 'Oh well, you only get
one life, god has a plan, this is his plan
for you. Tough luck, heaven is great
though'. What a crock.

Your answer is that when you die you will keep coming back as a different person, all that makes you who you are will be lost and there is a good chance you can come back even worse than you have it now and if you come back better it is only for as long as you live and then it is back to a new random life. This makes life a big game of chance, an eternal roulette wheel. No thanks. I don't even know what insulting word to say to this idea.

Quote:

This is what science
is pointing to,

You should really stop saying this because it is not true and makes you look a little silly. Scientific research documents and tests unexplainable phenomenon and then you make it point somewhere.

Quote: FrGamble

Your answer is that when you die you will keep coming back as a different person..

The essence of who you are, your spirit,
your soul, takes on a new body. Why
do you think all you are is a guy who
likes pizza and football has fading
memories of high school. If a good
deal of who you are doesn't continue,
why do all those kids have verifiable
memories. If nothing of who you are
was carried over, there would be
no memories to remember.

Quote:

This makes life a big game of chance

Since when isn't much of life random
chance. There's a reason people are
fascinated with games of chance, and
always have been.

Quote:

You should really stop saying this because it is not true and makes you look a little silly. .

LOL! Says the guy, with no verifiable proof
whatever, that god was born to a virgin,
walked on water, did other cornball magic,
died, and rose from the grave and hung out
with his friends for 40 days. The silly boat
sailed long ago on that. I'm not making the
evidence point anywhere, that's the conclusion
of those doing the research. They're the ones
saying that after 50 years of investigation,
the evidence points to reincarnation. And
it will continue to pile up, it's inevitable.

We always blame everything on the supernatural,
until science comes along and sets us straight.
Then we forget it was once all gods fault, and
accept the truth.