Gigafactory

May 26th, 2015 at 10:19:09 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 677
Posts: 7753
Quote: rxwine
Basically, if you could distribute thousands of such devices, people could cross the country in an electric vehicle without fear of never having a charging station, because even remote farmhouse could have a home station.


With a standard home plug it could take 3 to 8 hours to charge up a hybrid to an all electric car. You need specialized equipment to charge faster. I don't think it would be practical to commercialize residences in that way. You would have a lot of problems with personal safety inviting strangers to your house to sit around for long periods of time.

In Mexico you have a lot of the economy that seems to work in that low profit, high use of people's time, manner. Since people can't afford computers, there are rental places every few blocks where computer time is US$1 per hour. They are often operated by middle aged women who sit their with their knitting and television, and they sell sodas, printing paper, and other stuff to increase profit load. People walk around with USB thumb drives with their personal data.

I know that this magic all electric car that costs $30K and gets 200 miles per full charge is supposed to be available in five years, but I think that if it happens it will be $30K in the most stripped down possible version and 200 miles under the most optimal circumstances.

The only logical concept that seems to make sense for people who want electric cars at a reasonable price is to simply make it easy to rent gasoline powered vehicles for long trips.
May 26th, 2015 at 11:55:26 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 115
Posts: 4733
Quote: Pacomartin
With a standard home plug it could take 3 to 8 hours to charge up a hybrid to an all electric car. You need specialized equipment to charge faster. I don't think it would be practical to commercialize residences in that way. You would have a lot of problems with personal safety inviting strangers to your house to sit around for long periods of time.

In Mexico you have a lot of the economy that seems to work in that low profit, high use of people's time, manner. Since people can't afford computers, there are rental places every few blocks where computer time is US$1 per hour. They are often operated by middle aged women who sit their with their knitting and television, and they sell sodas, printing paper, and other stuff to increase profit load. People walk around with USB thumb drives with their personal data.

I know that this magic all electric car that costs $30K and gets 200 miles per full charge is supposed to be available in five years, but I think that if it happens it will be $30K in the most stripped down possible version and 200 miles under the most optimal circumstances.

The only logical concept that seems to make sense for people who want electric cars at a reasonable price is to simply make it easy to rent gasoline powered vehicles for long trips.


Well there's more than one way to skin a cat. Maybe someone will come up with a new twist. I know Tesla has a quick battery pack, but still requires significant infrastructure which reminds me of a tow truck I once saw repossess a car in Vegas in a matter of 10 seconds. He barely stopped the truck except to drop some lifts. And normally you see trucks carefully take sometime 15 - 20 minutes towing a vehicle. Maybe battery packs can be split in 4s making them removable like suitcases in 4 parts. That wouldn't take longer than pumping gas. Instead of needing a giant lift, all you need is a clever cart with a lifting device to move a smaller more manageable weight x 4. The car body could also snap completely up, much like a dragster body when they raise the shell.

I used to have an electric bicycle, just snap in and snap out the battery pack or charge in place. Obviously a much smaller scale, but same idea. It's a very easy concept. Had a NiMH (lasted 4 years) and later an early version of Li-ion. .Worked great.

The current version of cars has no need a removing large heavy packs so perhaps instead of a hood, the front or rear bumper could flip down. You don't want to lift, if you can slide.
No one has ever proven I am not God.
May 26th, 2015 at 12:03:58 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 98
Posts: 6188
Quote: rxwine

Well there's more than one way to skin a cat. Maybe someone will come up with a new twist. I know Tesla has a quick battery pack, but still requires significant infrastructure which reminds me of a tow truck I once saw repossess a car in Vegas in a matter of 10 seconds. He barely stopped the truck except to drop some lifts. And normally you see trucks carefully take sometime 15 - 20 minutes towing a vehicle. Maybe battery packs can be split in 4s making them removable like suitcases in 4 parts. That wouldn't take longer than pumping gas. Instead of needing a giant lift, all you need is a clever cart with a lifting device to move a smaller more manageable weight x 4. The car body could also snap completely up, much like a dragster body when they raise the shell.


The problem I always see with these idealized, "quick switch" things is they do not take into account how wear and tear happens on a car. Musk had that video of an ideal quick-switch. Ignoring the infeasible infrastructure, ask someone who has done their own work on their cars and lives in a climate that gets snow. In a short while, all the parts will get corroded. Snow and salt get over everything.

I don't see the body "snapping up" at all. Too heavy and too many safety issues.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
May 26th, 2015 at 2:06:43 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 115
Posts: 4733
Quote: AZDuffman
I don't see the body "snapping up" at all. Too heavy and too many safety issues.


Well all the variety of side opening/ slide opening bottom top, openings including automated and weight balanced or spring assisted openings vehicles already have, I think anything is possible. IN fact, electric assist might be possible from remaining charges on car batteries to help with removal.

Quote:
Ignoring the infeasible infrastructure, ask someone who has done their own work on their cars and lives in a climate that gets snow. In a short while, all the parts will get corroded. Snow and salt get over everything.


If you can't maintain internal contacts in a basically semi-closed system, you should fear the internal combustion engine itself.

It's a lot less technically complicated. Sure you might need to do "terminal maintenance" as designated in a manual, but if that's tougher than the average oil change, I'll eat my hat. Just like any other maintaining jobs, if it's not done only the owner is blamed -- even if it's for not hiring someone to do it.

Of course, you usually can't just run things without basic care. Can't run your radiator dry, or your brakes and tires to nothing. (unless you're FACE in a track race : ) Elements play a part as well as your own driving.
No one has ever proven I am not God.
May 26th, 2015 at 2:31:18 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 677
Posts: 7753
Quote: rxwine
Well there's more than one way to skin a cat.


At the risk of offending, I don't think the cat needs to be skinned, The reality is that 80% of the country lives on 3% of the land. Even mega commutes rarely go longer than the 75 mile capacity of all electric cars. Air pollution from vehicles in rural country is not a big problem.

No matter how you cut it, putting 80 pounds of gasoline into a car is much easier and cheaper than anything you can do with batteries and electricity. And you can drive a few hundred miles on that gasoline. Plus the infrastructure is already in place.

If electric cars become commonplace, people will just have to rent gasoline cars to go on intercity trips, just like a much older generation bought train tickets.
May 26th, 2015 at 2:45:33 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 115
Posts: 4733
Quote: Pacomartin
At the risk of offending,


No problem.

No one has ever proven I am not God.
May 26th, 2015 at 3:01:57 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 98
Posts: 6188
Quote: rxwine
Well all the variety of side opening/ slide opening bottom top, openings including automated and weight balanced or spring assisted openings vehicles already have, I think anything is possible. IN fact, electric assist might be possible from remaining charges on car batteries to help with removal.


I don't think you are realizing a few things. Number one is how much weight you are talking about adding. I am thinking on the order of 1,000 pounds. Then there is the fact that all those springs and counterweights have to compete for space with everything else. If you take a modern car apart you will see that there is very minimal wasted space. Finally there is safety. Lots of the safety in cars comes from their unitized construction. What you propose would require returning to body-on-frame construction. Again, more weight, plus kills the handling of the car, would make it like driving a 1985 Delta 88.


Quote:
If you can't maintain internal contacts in a basically semi-closed system, you should fear the internal combustion engine itself.

Of course, you usually can't just run things without basic care. Can't run your radiator dry, or your brakes and tires to nothing. (unless you're FACE in a track race : ) Elements play a part as well as your own driving.


I am not talking about the "closed" parts. I am talking about the nuts and bolts that access the system. Here is an example. My SUV as seen in the "Ramp Time" post has a spare tire under the rear area. I had to buy a bolt because the salt and water rusted the nut that held it up in place. Online searching said this happened often, which I imagined before I even started looking.

Quote: Pacomartin

If electric cars become commonplace, people will just have to rent gasoline cars to go on intercity trips, just like a much older generation bought train tickets.


Both the electric lobby and the anti-gasoline types claim this is the way to go. However, for many it would never be practical. Unless you make just 1-2 long trips a year maybe. But my hunch is people who try this will soon realize how much they underestimated how often they take long trips. Honestly, 200 miles in one day isn't hard to hit more than the 1-2 times a year some claim.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
May 26th, 2015 at 3:11:26 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 115
Posts: 4733
Quote: AZDuffman
I don't think you are realizing a few things. Number one is how much weight you are talking about adding. I am thinking on the order of 1,000 pounds. Then there is the fact that all those springs and counterweights have to compete for space with everything else. If you take a modern car apart you will see that there is very minimal wasted space.


Well it depends on what mechanism you use. If you can put most of the mechanical stuff outside the car, the car needn't carry the weight of it. You can certainly put a crane in a truck to load the bed, but much more practical to put it outside the truck.

The rest is economy of motion. One can move a lot of weight with little effort with the right tool even without a lot of power. With a lever and fulcrum, you can lift a pretty big rock.

I can't lift a piano, but I can move it laterally. Under the right conditions I can move it fairly easily laterally (pulley). The rest is made easy with the preciseness of modern engineering. (moving a piano across a carpet is less than ideal but common, but certainly not the best way to move such a weight)
No one has ever proven I am not God.
May 26th, 2015 at 3:33:02 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 98
Posts: 6188
Quote: rxwine
Well it depends on what mechanism you use. If you can put most of the mechanical stuff outside the car, the car needn't carry the weight of it. You can certainly put a crane in a truck to load the bed, but much more practical to put it outside the truck.

The rest is economy of motion. One can move a lot of weight with little effort with the right tool even without a lot of power. With a lever and fulcrum, you can lift a pretty big rock.


But you cannot put most of it "outside" the car. If you are going to hinge a body then all those moving parts have to be on the car. And if you hinge it no mater what you do you will have to return to body/frame construction. That part alone is a lot of weight.

I have learned to be very wary of any "idealized" model or prototype that shows something "works" because often it "works" only because of a bunch of work-arounds that are not feasible for production. I just do not see the "funny car" idea being practical or even possible.
The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it
May 26th, 2015 at 3:36:34 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 115
Posts: 4733
Well, I agree with you on the pitfalls of paper ideas to practical. Although eventually Thomas Edison got an idea right finally (for example) Just a 100 mistakes or so afterward.
No one has ever proven I am not God.