Science and God

May 30th, 2015 at 6:22:05 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 107
Posts: 11114
Quote: FrGamble
I have given you a list of evidence .


The evidence that most of the scientific
community rejects? That's not really
evidence, you know.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 30th, 2015 at 6:59:06 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 5057
You mean like the Big Bang or the expanding universe? The scientific community rejects that, news to me.
May 30th, 2015 at 7:18:17 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 107
Posts: 11114
Quote: FrGamble
You mean like the Big Bang or the expanding universe? The scientific community rejects that, news to me.


I don't remember a scientist ever saying
the BBT was proof of gods existence. In
fact, Hawking says flat out it's not. And he
should know.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 31st, 2015 at 3:32:43 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 5057
You are being squirrelly here. Remember we are not looking for proof, science could no more produce proof of God's existence than it could disprove God's existence. We are looking for evidence and the BBT is undeniable evidence that the universe had a beginning. I think even Hawking would agree to that.
May 31st, 2015 at 6:21:11 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 2
Posts: 1762
First of all, the BBT is not undeniable evidence that the universe had a beginning. It is a theory that is supported by evidence. There are other theories floating around out there that the evidence also supports.

Second, the universe having a beginning isn't proof or even an implication that there was a creator. That is simply one possible explanation, and since it is impossible to prove that there is a creator, it is impossible to prove that the universe was created by the creator.

Third, the BBT itself says nothing about what did or did not exist before the big bang. Something may have existed. There may have been a universe not unlike our own before. Or there may have been some version of reality that is quite different. No one knows. I don't think anyone can know.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
May 31st, 2015 at 10:54:56 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 5057
Quote: Dalex64
First of all, the BBT is not undeniable evidence that the universe had a beginning. It is a theory that is supported by evidence. There are other theories floating around out there that the evidence also supports.


A theory supported by evidence, exactly. If there are other theories I haven't heard them and I imagine they are not as much supported by the evidence as the BBT.

Quote:
Second, the universe having a beginning isn't proof or even an implication that there was a creator. That is simply one possible explanation, and since it is impossible to prove that there is a creator, it is impossible to prove that the universe was created by the creator.


It most certainly is an implication that there was a creator. If something had beginning and came into existence logically that something had a cause or a creator. It might be impossible for science to prove that there is a creator but it has done its job pointing us to that conclusion, reason and logic will take us the rest of the way.

Quote:
Third, the BBT itself says nothing about what did or did not exist before the big bang. Something may have existed. There may have been a universe not unlike our own before. Or there may have been some version of reality that is quite different. No one knows. I don't think anyone can know.


Of course not, BBT is a scientific theory and science can say nothing about what existed or did not exist before the beginning of the universe if there was no observable energy or time. By the way you sound like an agnostic and certainly not an atheist. I can respect that.
May 31st, 2015 at 12:49:42 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 107
Posts: 11114
Quote: FrGamble
It most certainly is an implication that there was a creator.


I just read a long paper written by a Christian
about the pro's and cons of the BBT being
a sign that god exists. He exhausts all the
avenues of discussion and at the very end
concludes, who knows. This is the last
sentence he writes:

"Our belief in the God of the Bible does not rest on scientific evidence
or philosophical proof, but on the person of Christ and our experience
of the Holy Spirit."

EXACTLY! That's why it's a religion and not a science,
there is no proof it's real. This is a new thing the
Christians have got going, all of a sudden faith means
nothing, it all must be proven with science. Since
when? It just leads to them chasing their tails and
gloming onto any theory that might validate their
religion. It makes them look weak and unsure, and they
don't even see it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 31st, 2015 at 12:57:57 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 107
Posts: 11114
Quote: FrGamble
I think even Hawking would agree to that.


In fact, Hawking wrote that the space-time of
the universe never equals zero, and if that's
true, there could never be a 'beginning'.

Others think there is a 'mother universe' that's
always been there and gives birth to other
universes with big bangs. An infinite number
of them. In fact, the oldest religion in the
world, Hinduism, implies this very thing.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 31st, 2015 at 1:11:52 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 318
Posts: 10831
Quote: FrGamble
A theory supported by evidence, exactly. If there are other theories I haven't heard them and I imagine they are not as much supported by the evidence as the BBT.


There was the steady state universe theory. Very ingenious, but not good enough. Lately there have been rumblings of other things. Inflation theory is an adjunct of the Big Bang, as to how the universe developed early on

I still have a critical question about the Big Bang. theories are supposed to be predictive. Therefore, does the Big Bang theory predict either dark matter or dark energy?

Quote:
Of course not, BBT is a scientific theory and science can say nothing about what existed or did not exist before the beginning of the universe if there was no observable energy or time.


Who says there wasn't?

There are many barriers to observation. One good example is Venus. It's shrouded in clouds, and there's no way to tell what lies beneath the clouds. From the time of Galileo until after WWII, no one could say a word about the surface of Venus, as there was nothing to observe. We couldn't even tell its period of rotation.

Then radar was bounced off it from Earth, giving a very rough notion of it, and a very exact measure of its rotation period. Probes were sent and determined facts about the atmosphere (dense and corrosive) and surface temperature (incredibly hot). Latter probes landed and sent pictures for a few minutes. Finally the Magellan probe used radar to map Venus from orbit.

So right now we have no idea what happened int he first tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang, nor what, if anything, happened before it. We don't know what is within the event horizon of a black hole, either.

Until we break those observation barriers, we simply don't know. We can't make assumptions and regard them as true based on this ignorance. We certainly cannot confirm something as fundamental as a creator based on ignorance.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
May 31st, 2015 at 1:21:47 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 107
Posts: 11114
Quote: Nareed
We certainly cannot confirm something as fundamental as a creator based on ignorance.


What? Sure we can, religions of all
stripes have been doing it for eons.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.