Sources?

Quote: Nareed

I don't think so.

Hey, I tried. I'm only "kinda good" with Christianity, Buddhism, and the Seneca creation story. You're certainly out of my league when it comes to this stuff =p

Quote: Nareed

Ponder this phrase concerning Louis XVI in the early stages of the French Revolution: no man can reign innocently.

This means Louis was guilty by virtue of having ruled. And this is a fascinating question. But that aside, it's as good a definition of deities as any other: they're all burdened with a nasty aspect. Ra, the life-giving Sun god, commanded Sechmed to destroy humanity (later he changed his mind and tricked her into abandoning her task). The Greek gods did all sorts of awful things to various humans, and even to other gods. Jehovah is a first-class bastard, as I've said a number of times.

Yet they also do nice things, right? Create the world, drive out your enemies (when they feel like it), provide a good harvest, etc.

Who would want to worship such deities??

What would you call a man who dutifully provides for his family, yet from time to time gets angry or drunk and beats the crap out of them?

All gods, yes. All possess great power, great love, great compassion... and have snapped when their children disobeyed so they went apocalyptic on them. A common thread present in many, many gods.

It almost... kind of... sort of... sounds like man, doesn't it? I know I consider myself kind and compassionate and intelligent and powerful and forgiving, yet every now and then I will just want to hurt someone who has violated one of my personal, unwritten rules. And that similarity, to me, is yet another reason why I feel God is the creation and not the other way around. You're a writer. Aren't your characters, at least some, really just parts of you? So too has god been parts of regular ol' man.

Another class of myths, a rare one, is one I call "self-esteem myths."

In Ancient times a nation's power was measured almost entirely on which other nations it could conquer or subjugate. Thus while Egypt never expanded its frontiers the way Rome did, it did subjugate a great many other nations and cities. Nubia, Megiddo, Kadesh and many more, from whom Egypt extracted tribute. Rome is the archetype of the expansionist empire, though not the originator. Athens at one time lorded it over the Peloponnesus, Persia held a great deal of lands and client states in various incarnations.

These kinds of nations don't need self-esteem myths.

The nations they conquered, browbeaten, and subjugated do.

On of these nations was Israel. Just about every large power they came in contact with beat them up for their lunch money, as it were. The Philistines, the Babylonians, presumably the Egyptians and Hittites as well, certainly the Assyrians, the Seleucids, etc, etc. So they developed myths to counter these repeated humiliations.

In the Joseph myth, one of their own saves Egypt from famine, rises to the highest post a commoner or even a noble could aspire to, and obtains a great deal of wealth for himself, his family or his posterity.

The Exodus myth turns Joseph's gains around, but it serves as a re-founding myth and has Jehovah, rather than a mortal, deliver a death blow, and sadistic plagues and murders, to the king of Egypt himself. My god is bigger than your gods, pretty much sums it all up.

In Exodus part 2, so to speak, the nation of Israel does a little conquering of its own, with Jehovah performing miracles to aid in military victory (tearing down walls with ram horn trumpets? Really?) over the cities of Canaan.

Later you have first Sampson and then David getting revenge on the Philistines. The Maccabees revolting against the Greeks. Esther doing something to some incarnation of the Persians (I don't remember much of that myth). The latter two take place after the Old Testament was written, but still form part of the Hebrew mythology and religion (meaning mythology).

That's quite an extensive repertory.

I'm sure other conquered and beaten people's didn't develop anything so elaborate, except perhaps the Germanic tribes at the time of Rome. I hear Arminius, in original Teutonic name, is remembered in Germany to this day. But then Rome never did conquer much among the Germanic tribes.

Quote: Face

Hey, I tried.

So did I :)

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All gods, yes. All possess great power, great love, great compassion... and have snapped when their children disobeyed so they went apocalyptic on them.

I wouldn't put it quite like that. I don't see any great love on the part of most gods, certainly not Jehovah. And disobedience is usually something we would regard as a minor infraction, like looking back on Sodom, or exercising freedom of religion (not really an infraction t all).

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It almost... kind of... sort of... sounds like man, doesn't it?

Almost?

Actually the gods are much worse.

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I know I consider myself kind and compassionate and intelligent and powerful and forgiving, yet every now and then I will just want to hurt someone who has violated one of my personal, unwritten rules.

I'm willing to bet you've never killed anyone. And that puts you morally head and shoulders above any god ever invented.

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You're a writer. Aren't your characters, at least some, really just parts of you?

Don't I wish!!

Some are what I hope to be, others are what I wish I had been. But most have no relationship to me at all.

In art one should portray things and people not as they are, but as they should be. If I may oversimplify.

Quote: Nareed

I'm willing to bet you've never killed anyone.

Neither has any god =p ;)

Quote: Nareed

Some are what I hope to be, others are what I wish I had been.

Yeah, that's what I mean. God just seems to have way to many mortal traits. Human ones, too, which is the real clincher. In fact, He is so much like man He actually became one, once.

So the creator of everything and all things is very, very closely related to man. Let that idea sink in, and then take a look around at the men around you. I laugh every time =)

Quote: Face

Neither has any god =p ;)

Only because they're not real.

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Yeah, that's what I mean. God just seems to have way to many mortal traits. Human ones, too, which is the real clincher.

In fiction there are many ways of explaining things away. This one requires the line that Jehovah made Adam in his image and likeness. It's a backstory element.

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In fact, He is so much like man He actually became one, once.

I think that qualifies as a surprise twist in the overall plot, if there were an overall plot.

But if you consider all the wrong assumptions about the world and the universe contained in the Bible, you may ask yourself "How did the lord and creator of the universe get it all so wrong?" Explaining that away requires some serious, heavy-duty handwavium.

On the other hand, if you suppose the people holding and making the wrong assumptions actually conceived and wrote the book, then it makes perfect sense for all that bad information to be in there.

churches want control so they are the ones who appoint authorities and recognize certain works as authority. for a long time priests in england may not have had Bibles but they carried on with some books that looked good.

when a wood cutter made three pence a day and could be fined fifty pounds for failure to attend church, you know what real authority over everyone's life was held. welfare? church administrated. grain storage? church administrated tythe houses. travel? church administered... try to move into the forest somewhere and Beedle would come around issuing a warning as to which was the closest church for you to attend and which tax roll you were to be on.

question the church and it was tantamount to questioning civilization in its entirety.

Quote: Fleastiff

question the church and it was tantamount to questioning civilization in its entirety.

I've said it over and over, people don't
realize how powerful the Catholic Church
was, and later, the Church of England,
in the Middle Ages. It was frightening.