In decline.

Quote: Pacomartin

I was only citing it as a counter-example to Nareed's argument that religion is having a diminished impact on politics.

I see. Well, public policy <> politics. Second, I'm willing to bet at least a large plurality of nominally practicing Jews (say 45% and up) either do not commemorate Tisha b'Av or have no idea what it even is.

But third and most significantly, you dated events as "Before the Common Era" (BCE) and "Common Era" (CE). Not, one cannot help but point out, as BC or AD.

And fourth, I made a prediction, not an argument.

Quote: Evenbob

I like what this guy has done here. He says he's
done immaculate research on the numbers
and I believe him. He got many sources for
each event and looked at them as a whole.
Must have taken him forever. The Crusades
are near the bottom. 1-3 million killed.

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/08/the-death-toll-comparison-breakdown.html

I see FrG isn't arguing with these numbers.
They're quite accurate, there is no argument.

When a big number is given for some holocaust
the Church perpetrated, they always pop up and
say, oh no, it was only 100K killed, not 1mil. Like
it's acceptable to kill 100K people in Jesus name.
How about zero people killed in a religion that
supposedly stands for love and peace, how about
you kill nobody. Saying that we're 'different now'
has no meaning. You're no different, the world
just won't tolerate you doing whatever you like
anymore.

It looked like a good post that you linked too and I haven't really delved into it that much. One thing to point out is the span of years he puts the crusades at. There is no other entry in his post that extends that far, I forget but I think he has the time of the crusades spanning over 200 years. I think he should have taking that more into account, but that would mean that the individual crusades would only show up as a blip on his chart.

You have a good point that no one should ever be killed or murdered in general, I don't know why you restrict this prohibition on killing people to just religion. No one should kill anyone period. Not for atheism, which is a HUGE number, not because someone is gay, or likes blue cheese, or is a democrat or a republican. Let's get together on the idea that no one should be murdering anyone rather than just calling out religion. I think you can see through though through your strong stance on murder the reality of sin.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know why you restrict this prohibition on killing people to just religion.

Why do you do this? You know exactly why
we pick on religion. Because you're the ones
that stand behind pulpits and preach at the
rest of us. People who preach have to be held
to a higher standard, or what's the point of
preaching. It just makes him look like a pitiful
hypocrite when he can't even live the life he tells
all of us we should be leading. If you can't walk
the walk, don't talk the talk.

Like your response to priests who molest kids.
You kind of off tossed out the fact that priests,
when taken as a whole, don't molest at a higher
% rate than the rest of world. Like that's OK, and
we're the ones making too big a deal out of it.
You even said we shouldn't single out priests
because they are 'human too' and make mistakes.

If they don't want to be singled out and held to
a higher standard, don't take the moral high
ground every Sunday behind the pulpit and
behind the white collar. If you really are no better
than the common person, get a job as a plumber
or a carpenter and don't tell the rest of us how
we should living our lives.

Quote: FrGamble

Of course it really happened and it has been repented of.

I think that is a Catholic way of saying "it doesn't matter" because like a little brat that keeps saying I'm sorry, someone at some time or another said "I'm sorry".

>The myth is the things and stories that have grown up around the crusades, inquisitions, and witch hunts.
well, dagnabit,... there weren't no traditions of historical accuracy and only Nareed is able to conceive of a world where someone could actually go back and physically count each dead corpse after a battle.

>Things like the iron maiden and millions and millions of deaths are not grounded in historical fact, they are often anti-Catholic propaganda.
Is that different from anti-Jew propaganda?

was the first crusade against the Jews or was it merely the first step in a series of church inspired maneuvers to wrest the profitable spice trade from the arabs so catholics could control it instead?

Quote: FrGamble

You have a good point that no one should ever be killed or murdered in general.

Ain't ja never hoid of dat dog fight in Brooklyn versus a Civil War in China?

Africa is riddled with corrupt governments and citizens whose only dream is to grow up to be a corrupt government official. Its also a nation where little brats grow up to become twelve or thirteen year old soldiers in endless tribal wars or mineral wars and do nothing but kill off other twelve year brats toting AK-47s and RPGs. so if a couple of hundred get slaughtered in some ambush, what is it in the great measure of things over the course of a decade? the emphasis of news coverage should be on the dogs in Brooklyn.

If we're going to quote politicians, we may as well quote one who used his brain for thinking:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson.


That day has come and passed. It's just not as universally believed yet.


Oh, and there's this:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson.

I wonder which god he meant. We know it's not Jehovah, who gets offended and bullies people who question his actions (see the book of Job), never mind his existence. The Greco-Roman gods were not much better (see the fate of Prometheus, and he was a Titan). Perhaps the unnamed snake god from the Sailor's Tale from Egypt. I mean, he neither wrecked the ship, nor acted with contempt towards his unexpected guest. Oh, near the end he mocks the sailor's promises to build a temple to him, but he explains why and sends the sailor home happy and richer.

We may never know. The snake god out on the Mediterranean would be a good candidate, but Jefferson could never have known of him. No one in the world did until well after Champollion deciphered Ancient Egyptian and the papyrus with the tale was translated. Jefferson simply did not live that long.

Quote: Evenbob

If they don't want to be singled out and held to
a higher standard, don't take the moral high
ground every Sunday behind the pulpit and
behind the white collar.

I agree those who preach the message of Jesus should be held to living it and no one wants to our should have to listen to a hypocrite. What I don't understand about your argument is twofold. Why should those few bad priests who did evil things stop me or the vast majority of priests from preaching the Good News? Secondly, I don't understand why you insist on only having such a high standard for the preachers and not the plumbers? Shouldn't a plumber be just as holy, good, and loving as a priest? Of course he should, Jesus said as much when he mentioned that if your holiness does not surpass those of the Pharisees and Sadducees you will not enter into Heaven. He was making a point that those we often think of as holy and put on pedestals should not be an exclusive group, but rather everyone. I have a different role as the plumber, but we both are called to holiness in the same degree according to our way of life.

Quote: Fleastiff

Is that different from anti-Jew propaganda?

Not a lot different, you are correct.

Quote:

was the first crusade against the Jews or was it merely the first step in a series of church inspired maneuvers to wrest the profitable spice trade from the arabs so catholics could control it instead?

The Crusades were not against the Jews at all. Nor were they some kind of calculated economic stimulus plan. In actuality they were abject failures. They obviously did not free the Holy Land from Muslim invaders. They led to blood thirsty evil men using the crusades as an excuse to do murder and steal. At one point it cemented the first great division in Christianity between the West and the East by Crusaders sacking Constantinople, a Christian city?!?

Quote: FrGamble

1.2 million is way, way, off the mark.

I am finding that number on hundreds to thousands of websites. But I don't know where it comes from. I have to agree with the father that it is a ridiculously large number as the population of Europe was around 50 million and the total Jewish population was unlikely to be even 1%.

The reality of the Rhineland massacres well documented. According to David Nirenberg, the events of 1096 in the Rhineland "occupy a significant place in modern Jewish historiography and are often presented as the first instance of an antisemitism that would henceforth never be forgotten and whose climax was the Holocaust."

http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/08/the-death-toll-comparison-breakdown.html
I don't see an estimate for the Crusades in this blog.