In decline.

It' been proven more times than either you or I can count. It's an adventure to a well known place that many have been to and love. No wishful thinking or speculation about it, faith in Jesus Christ the real historical person, true God and true man, ever-living savior of the human race makes a difference in people's lives for the better. I'm offering the greatest, most real thing in this world; what are you offering?

Quote: FrGamble

It' been proven more times than either you or I can count. It's an adventure to a well known place that many have been to and love.

But so is Santa, for that matter, or Allah. Fantasy
is fantasy, if it didn't make people feel good,
they would get rid of it. You offer nothing real,
what are you talking about. That's what's always
been dangerous about religious people, they
believe their own hype. Jim Jones offered it
in such giant helpings that his followers drank
the Kool Aid with him.

What do I offer? I'm not in the offering or following
business, I leave that to the true believers or
the truly deluded who seem to have a lot of time
on their hands. Ever notice that like every good
salesman, you're 'always closing'? Always having
the selling points right at hand, always trying to
close the deal. Why is that? Why is Christianity
such a hard sell? If it's as great as you say it is,
it should be easy peasy, and it's anything but.
As people become more educated, it will be no
sale at all eventually. Even today it's faltering.
The ranks of priests and nuns is shrinking at
an alarming rate, and you have a bat crazy
pope that's losing support every time he
opens his socialist mouth.

Quote: Evenbob

But so is Santa, for that matter, or Allah.
Fantasy is fantasy, if it didn't make people feel good, they would get rid of it.

Fantasy about an after life, doing good, or fantasy about a stripper, or the blonde at the next desk, most people don't want to dwell on reality. reality is depressing.

>You offer nothing real, what are you talking about.
No salesman does. salesmen offer "sizzle" not the steak. salesmen offer 'hope'.

>> That's what's always been dangerous about religious people, they believe their own hype.
>>Jim Jones offered it in such giant helpings that his followers drank the Kool Aid with him.
so they are loyal to their own hype rather than someone else's hype?

>As people become more educated, it will be no sale at all eventually.
educated or economically free of coercion? remember those red robed Oregonian poisoners... they were all fairly wealthy.

>>The ranks of priests and nuns is shrinking at an alarming rate,
that is understandable, but replacements are always available somewhere.

>>and you have a bat crazy pope that's losing support every time he opens his socialist mouth.
so what, endemic corruption in the vatican will always prevail no mater who is in office.

Santa has never been proven, in fact around the year 10 or so for every kid it is proven false. Allah is just the Arabic word for God. The only fantasy is to not think there is a God. Thinking there is no God is the only idea that has no proof behind it. There are only two things that make Christianity a hard sale. First is the massive baggage people often carry with them that has colored their view of Christianity and Christians. Some people have been taught hateful things and falsehoods about the Church and others have experienced hypocrisy and evil at the hands of so called Christians. It seems you have had both - poor teaching and bad experiences. Secondly there is the cost of discipleship. Christianity challenges people to be the best version of themselves and to love and care for others, especially the poor and needy. This sacrificial and altruistic lifestyle is not in vogue in the current American culture. This by the way is what the Pope is talking about and I think he is gaining support every time he speaks.

One other thing you seem happy about is the news that it seems like Christianity is in decline. I would ask you to read your history books. This is not even close to the worst the Church has ever experienced. Once educated people really think about things deeply they will be naturally drawn to Christianity and the Good News will continue to spread and change people's lives for the better. Even the gates of hell will not prevail against her.

Quote: FrGamble

Santa has never been proven, in fact around the year 10 or so for every kid it is proven false.

Santa is interesting. Every kid who grows up
with the Santa myth believes it, sometimes
long into childhood. They actually believe
some fat guy at the North Pole has an army
of elves making gifts that he delivers to
houses in sleigh pulled by flying reindeer.

That is a far more preposterous myth than
the Jesus story, and they believe it whole
heartedly. Why? Because it's reinforced
by adults and other kids. Why do Christians
believe the Jesus myth. For the same reason,
it's reinforced by those around them. They
don't believe it because it's true, they have
no idea if it's true.

You didn't defend the pope, does this mean
even his own Church is wary of him?

The Pope is awesome.

Adults believe in Jesus, because Christianity is true. People stop believing in Santa as adults, because it is not true. You can reinforce all you want but eventually falsehoods cannot hold and they crumble. That will never happen to Christianity because it is true and too many people know this and have experienced this truth.

doubl

Quote: Evenbob

.... I leave that to the true believers or
the truly deluded who seem to have a lot of time
on their hands. Ever notice that like every good
salesman, you're 'always closing'? Always having
the selling points right at hand, always trying to
close the deal....

This is a recent experience of mine, while speaking with someone dear to me, who until 2 years ago was considered a "righteous" woman.

She went to a religious college and wanted to marry a preacher, who had said he had "heard the word of God" and being a preacher was his true calling. That failed. I like to think partly because he couldn't even convince this dumb yankee, to give him money.

After a while the beatings started, and kids, 5 all totaled. He is/was a serial abuser, physically and emotionally, [not sexually that I'm aware?] Black and blued her often enough and would throw the kids clear across the room if they dared to anger him or make any noise during his tv, which is a lot of the time, seems he doesn't like to work.

So, she went to marriage counseling, hoping to get some kind of understanding and relief. The abuse continued, as well as the beatings. The churches advice was to continue going to counselling and not to divorce him, and to ...."submit".

After more abuse, restraining orders were filed, he was removed from the house three times [for violent abuse] and the churches advice was to try and "work things out", of course with religious counseling. She listened to her church and group of followers, and let him in the house. The state got wind of her decision and told her that they were going to take the kids away and put them in foster care if she allowed the abuser to come into the home.

So, her choice against the advice of her church was to divorce him. It was that or give up her kids. She is now ostracized from the church and when she meets anyone from their group they meet her with disdain.

Her brother who still goes to that church says the preacher is a righteous man and only doing God's work. I told him [her brother] he is in a cult that is no different than J. Jones, and beware of the kool-aid.

God does not want women to stay in a relationship and continually take beatings and abuse. What kind of cult supports the belief that she shouldn't leave him?

That has been my most recent experience with "the church", doing Gods work. This woman, raising 5 kids by herself and an x who refuses support, needs help now more than at any other time in her life, and they shun her for leaving an abuser. Go figure.

petroglyph, what a horrific and sad story. It does sound like a cult and certainly does not deserve the name Church or Christian. In my parish one of our parishioners gave us a house specifically to shelter women like this and their children from abusers like the person you describe. There is a much larger house in Baltimore run by Catholic Charities for the same reason. To visit these places and hang out with these courageous women and their innocent children now in a safe and supportive place is to truly experience the Church doing God's work.

How Evenbob can read something heart wrenching like this and not acknowledge the reality of sin is beyond me.

Quote: FrGamble

How Evenbob can read something heart wrenching like this and not acknowledge the reality of sin is beyond me.

Is that what they convict them of, sinning?
I don't think so.