In decline.

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August 13th, 2015 at 12:34:09 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Face
You have all the answers. You have a god in your corner. If that's the case, why are we exactly the same?


No you didn't, you didn't really ask
this question. This is what Christians
WANT you to ask.

Face palm...

Yup, Christians took America away from
the Indians, and knew it when they were
doing it.

When they invaded Central America, the
Catholics burned the hundreds of years
old written history of the Mayan's,
just because they and their god couldn't
read it. Scores of books, in color, maybe
hundreds of books. Lost forever to ignorance
and hubris and stupidity.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 13th, 2015 at 3:19:37 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Face
How much is all of the Americas even worth in today's USD? Quadrillions? Quintillions? All stolen by Christian Europeans, who all believed it was the will of the Lord to take over and bring "light" to the "savages".


Skipping a great deal of complex ethical questions, given the technological level of the natives of this continent at the time, the hemisphere was worth a lot less economically than even small European countries like the Netherlands.

History lessons tend to skip how backwards the Americas were by the XVI century. They weren't even at the iron-age level for the most part. Of course, like Ancient Egypt before them, some of those civilizations were capable of erecting great monuments with mostly bronze-age tools.

Just compare the level of economic and technical development of the US or Canada with that of Mexico or any Latin American country. The gap in the XVI century was much wider.

This in no way excuses the great harm wrought by the European conquerors and colonists.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
August 13th, 2015 at 3:30:31 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Nareed
They weren't even at the iron-age level for the most part. .


There was mining, but only for the easily
obtained soft metals like gold and copper.
And that was used for ornamentation only.
There was no smelting, it was a stone age
culture tech wise.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 13th, 2015 at 4:31:47 PM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: Face
Now, what do we think of Nazi's today? There's no Nazi in 2015 that's killed a million people. There's no Nazi today that is imprisoning entire cultures. Hell, they're not even doing it to thousands. You may have some segregationists, probably some dude who's killed a handful, but nowhere near what happened in Germany circa 1945. Yet still, the Nazi's are condemned. In 2015, there is not a shred of positivity or even indifference when you hear the word "Nazi". It's 100% negative. Even their sigul, the swastika, which was stolen and was really a symbol of peace and auspiciousness, is tainted beyond repair. It doesn't matter if a 2015 Nazi doesn't believe in killing, if he doesn't believe in war, if you identify as a Nazi, you are universally shunned.

I'm sure you agree. And here comes the zinger...
Not so fast there, Face. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-05/leader-ukraines-ultranationalist-right-sector-appointed-army-advisor, that is the party that the US currently supports in Ukraine.

The Golden Dawn party in Greece is second, just under Tsipras government.

They are still the radical, ultra nationalist assholes they were back then, awaiting their chance. The US banks [Prescott Bush] financed Adolph back when.

Quote:
What the Nazi's did pales in comparison to what European Christians did in the Americas alone. Pales in comparison. We're not talking about single-digit-million dying. We're talking tens of millions, entire extinction of peoples, total loss of culture, and the theft of their entire homeland.
That has always been my position, and try to point out there has been more than one holocaust. Mao killed millions as well, as did Pol Pot.

Quote:
When I think Christian or Catholic, I don't think of a superior group that wages a convert or die campaign. But I know that at one time, that's exactly what it was. Everything you and we shun about militant Islam today is the way Catholicism once was.
Things go round and round, who owns the press. This is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today, although not a popular belief. It is what we are doing to the Syrians, and by proxy the Yemeni's, etc.
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
August 13th, 2015 at 4:48:01 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Face

When I think Christian or Catholic, I don't think of a superior group that wages a convert or die campaign. But I know that at one time, that's exactly what it was. Everything you and we shun about militant Islam today is the way Catholicism once was. And when a group is so full of egregious mistakes over hundreds of years of history, as the group called Catholics is, you know what I see?


I strongly disagree with your reading of history here. One major problem I have with your interpretation of history is that you are not taking into consideration the combination of Church and State at that time. Do you really think the "conquest" of the New World was all about spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ? Some great missionaries like St. Junipero Serra tried to do that and had to fight tooth and nail for the indigenous people who were being killed and exploited by "Christian" Spain or other Europeans. The exploration and take over of the new world was for political and economic reasons. Yes, they often had a Padre or two stowed away on the boat and these guys were sometimes just as bad as the conquistadors, but make no mistake about it, this was not some pure missionary adventure financed by the Kings and Queens of Europe. I can imagine Christopher Columbus coming back empty handed to the Queen saying, "Good news! There were amazingly good and holy people we encountered in the New World, we have told them about Jesus Christ and the faith is spreading like wildfire." She would have said, "Where is my gold!" and Columbus would have been hanged. So don't conflate the "Catholic" Spain with Catholicism.


Quote:
I see people. People who fuck up just like I do. People who are selfish just like I am. People who are beautiful just as I can be. People who do wonderful things which I also try to do. People who are so filled of love and light, people who are so filled with darkness and hate. Just like me. You have all the answers. You have a god in your corner. If that's the case, why are we exactly the same?


Because we are both made in the image and likeness of God. God's unconditional love is not conditioned just for those who believe in His son Jesus or who live a perfect life (which is nobody). I wish I had all the answers, but I am far from that, my only answer to everything is Jesus Christ. He helps me understand the beautiful struggle of humanity that you so aptly summarized. We are selfish assholes and we are wonderful beautiful people - we are filled with darkness and hate and at the same time light and love. This is the reality of a people tainted with what we call Original Sin. He also saves me from thinking that my darkness or hate makes me unlovable and inspires me to live as best I can a life of light and love. Finally, He gives me ultimate purpose, meaning, and hope.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 13th, 2015 at 5:46:43 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: FrGamble

I strongly disagree with your reading of history here..... So don't conflate the "Catholic" Spain with Catholicism.


I'm not, it's just hard to cover 400 years of history in one or two paragraphs =p

I understand their arrival was economic in nature. And of the millions and millions killed, I know a vast majority was due to disease. And not just "the white man waging germ warfare"; much was from nothing more than contact with a new culture. I'd even go so far as to call it an innocent event. But in the later years, after Europeans were established in the East, what happened was a God fueled drive west. I also know this was "genuine" in nature. These new Americans believed they should expand and bring total freedom and peace to throughout the land. They believed it was God's will to do so. My problem is their selfcenteredness. They thought it was right to do, they believed it was God's will, so they went and did it.

You know, I know of a stand of cherry trees. Arrow straight, they are, and gotta be 50' tall. Give me a day and a tractor and I'd be at Ezekiel's saw mill that night, and I'd walk away with $X0,000. Five figures. But those trees, they ain't mine. They might be anybody's, they could even be nobody's. I could fell them and haul them and cash in completely on my own, and if they were somebody's, not only wouldn't I get caught, whoever owns them probably wouldn't even notice their disappearance. But I don't, because they ain't mine. And I'm not even religious.

I imagine you're the same way. I find it hard to believe you'd see and abandoned bag or wallet and decide to take it. It ain't yours. Don't matter if it looks completely ownerless and you wouldn't even get caught. It ain't yours, so you'd leave it. Yet here, we have a bunch of "good minded" Catholics who want to take and do something good, never once thinking it already belonged to someone else. And generous they were indeed, for if the redman accepted their way of life, they were allowed assimilation with no qualms. But resist? Kill, murder, vacate, relocate.

People are waking up. I usually go the Indian Affairs route because I know it. EB and Nareed seem to focus more on the Inquisitions and Ye Olde Time Europe. But these and a lot more of the church's "mistakes" are readily available in the internet. Maybe in EB's day a discussion about the church was limited to the knowledge of that community's people. It's easy to gloss over things in that small a group. But now, everything is within everyone's reach, and people are finding out.

In decline? I wouldn't be surprised. Knowledge trumps belief for all but the most passionate.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
August 13th, 2015 at 7:35:06 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: face
Yet here, we have a bunch of "good minded" Catholics who want to take and do something good, never once thinking it already belonged to someone else.


No no, they were fully aware of who it belonged
to. Godless heathens. That meant they had no
right to it at all. I remember reading a diary
a long time ago written by a woman who went
West with her husband in the 1840's. She was a
Christian and she wrote about the Indians like
they weren't even human. She called them
'filthy godless heathens' all the time, and
gloated about much good the white man
doing in setting up towns and converting
them to god fearing Christians. Made me sick..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 13th, 2015 at 7:40:57 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
This is the reality of a people tainted with what we call Original Sin.


I did feel tainted after I saw this, but in a good
way. It was almost a spiritual experience.

If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 13th, 2015 at 9:03:32 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Face
But now, everything is within everyone's reach, and people are finding out.

In decline? I wouldn't be surprised. Knowledge trumps belief for all but the most passionate.


I think there is often an illusion that everything is within everyone's reach or that the internet makes everyone think they know everything. There is a lot of misinformation and false things out in the interwebs, so much so that you can pretty much decide what you want to find and find it. Knowledge often takes work and discipline and an open mind. These are three things lacking in many people, often also lacking in myself at times. I would say far more often than knowledge, ignorance and prejudice trump belief for all but the most passionate searchers of truth.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 13th, 2015 at 10:15:55 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I think there is often an illusion that everything is within everyone's reach or that the internet makes everyone think they know everything. .


It's an historical fact that the printing press was
the start of the downfall of the Church. Before
then the Vatican had iron fist control over who
got a hand copied Bible and who did not.

The printing press made it available to anyone
and eventually caused the birth of the
Protestants, which the Church has yet to
get over to this day. It gave birth to the 3000
different versions of the religion we have
now. Knowledge is a terrible thing when you
run a religion, the less people know the better
off you are.

Secularism will rule the future, knowledge is our
friend, not our enemy.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
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