Defund Planned Parenthood

Page 23 of 25« First<202122232425>
May 26th, 2016 at 3:46:48 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Nareed
Than it's not "The word of 'God' "?


Not in the sense you seem to think it is.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 26th, 2016 at 3:53:06 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Nareed

You said, and I quote "Since you are so cavalier about the human embryo and see it as a moral right to kill it within the first trimester[..]"

This implies anyone at all for any reason, or without a reason, at any time can kill any first trimester embryo they want.

Whereas one person, and one person only, has the right to choose to abort an embryo in the third trimester. This person being the woman pregnant with the fetus. And her choice to do so in an absolute moral right.


Thank you. Can I point out a still glaring flaw in your logic? If the reason a mother, and only the mother, has the right to chose to abort an embryo in the first trimester is because at that stage of development you think it is nothing more than a glob of tissue then why should she alone have the moral right to abort? What if the father decided he was not ready for a baby and by the first trimester requested an abortion? Also if embryos are not real beings with absolute moral rights themselves before certain points in their development I return to my question about animals. If I don't want my kitten to have her babies can I chose to abort them before a certain time because they are not deserving of any rights?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 26th, 2016 at 4:05:18 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Isn't there some argument that it is impossible for an imperfect being to produce something that is perfect and without error?

The bible was written by people, and like you just said it isn't the direct word of god. It is imperfect. It can't be considered to be a wholly accurate representation of what god wants from us.

If god isn't accurately communicating what he wants from us, and he is perfect, then it must be true that he is able to communicate perfectly with us, but chooses not to.

Why does god choose not to communicate his desires to us, clearly and without error, and with no room for interpretation?

According to the story of genesis, he did just that - do not eat from that tree. He appeared to Moses, though strangely as a burning bush, and delivered some commandments. He spoke to Noah. He spoke to others.

Where is that level of communication now? Why must we believe on faith that what men came up with in committees and wrote down is really what god wants?

Why must we (now) rely on signs and portents, prayer and faith, to tell us what god wants? Why doesn't he just tell us?

I keep being led to the same conclusion - that all of the stories are just stories that never really happened, and god is not real.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
May 26th, 2016 at 4:43:51 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
If the reason a mother, and only the mother, has the right to chose to abort an embryo in the first trimester is because at that stage of development you think it is nothing more than a glob of tissue


As Reagan was fond of telling Carter "There you go again."

An embryo is not "just a glob of tissue." It just isn't a person or an actual human being.


Quote:
then why should she alone have the moral right to abort?


Because no one else in the universe is carrying the fetus.

Quote:
What if the father decided he was not ready for a baby and by the first trimester requested an abortion?


Because forcing someone to abort against her will is as immoral as forcing someone to carry a pregnancy against her will.


Quote:
If I don't want my kitten to have her babies can I chose to abort them before a certain time because they are not deserving of any rights?


Animals are incapable of making decisions concerning their health and well-being. When you adopt a pet, you are making yourself responsible for its well-being. That's the ethical standard you have to follow in such a case.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
May 26th, 2016 at 5:21:33 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Nareed

An embryo is not "just a glob of tissue." It just isn't a person or an actual human being.


Thank you again. Isn't this clarifying such much better than name calling?

Can you clarify what makes an "actual" human being and when this happens?




Quote:
Because no one else in the universe is carrying the fetus.


And the fetus is not an "actual" human being at this point and represents a "massively inconvenient" reality.



Quote:
Because forcing someone to abort against her will is as immoral as forcing someone to carry a pregnancy against her will.


Besides nature who is forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term? This is just the natural thing women do when they get pregnant. If we did nothing the mother would have the baby. You seem to have no problem forcing the embryo to die. Is forcing death on something or a potential someone more immoral than someone carrying a pregnancy to term?


Quote:
Animals are incapable of making decisions concerning their health and well-being. When you adopt a pet, you are making yourself responsible for its well-being. That's the ethical standard you have to follow in such a case.


But surely you would agree with me that it would be immoral for me to kill the young kittens in the womb or squash the eggs of my bird because they were inconvenient to me.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 26th, 2016 at 5:33:03 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
Isn't there some argument that it is impossible for an imperfect being to produce something that is perfect and without error?


Seems to make sense to me.

Quote:
The bible was written by people, and like you just said it isn't the direct word of god. It is imperfect. It can't be considered to be a wholly accurate representation of what god wants from us.


Not the written words themselves no, you also need the living tradition and the teaching office of the Church to get the complete picture of God's revelation. The Bible itself is fairly clear on this point.

Quote:
If god isn't accurately communicating what he wants from us, and he is perfect, then it must be true that he is able to communicate perfectly with us, but chooses not to.


Or is something blocking our ability to hear and respond to God's communication to us?

Quote:
Why does god choose not to communicate his desires to us, clearly and without error, and with no room for interpretation?


What about God's communication is not clear to you? What we need for our salvation is indeed communicated to us without error through the Bible, the Church, and even in our very nature and our conscience. The room for interpretation is always going to be there if you have free will.

Quote:
According to the story of genesis, he did just that - do not eat from that tree. He appeared to Moses, though strangely as a burning bush, and delivered some commandments. He spoke to Noah. He spoke to others.

Where is that level of communication now? Why must we believe on faith that what men came up with in committees and wrote down is really what god wants?


You act as if those messages or moments of communication were gone and forgotten, they still speak to us today. We have millennium now of traditions and reflections on the revelation of God in Jesus Christ. If you have a question about something in regards to Christian theology believe me when I say you are not the first to think about it, question it, or write about it. We have a pretty clear picture of God's revelation. Of course we can never completely plumb the depths of it and in applying it to our modern situations we run into difficulties.

Quote:
Why must we (now) rely on signs and portents, prayer and faith, to tell us what god wants? Why doesn't he just tell us?


We are part of this too you know. God isn't interested in dictating to us from on high. In fact it really even isn't about what God wants, it is about being in a relationship with God. Does your relationship with a loved one only revolve around being told what to do?

Quote:
I keep being led to the same conclusion - that all of the stories are just stories that never really happened, and god is not real.


Keep thinking about them and asking these good questions and you will reach a different conclusion.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 26th, 2016 at 6:19:15 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Keep thinking about them and asking these good questions and you will reach a different conclusion.


Only if you ignore lack of evidence and
suspend your disbelief 24/7. That's the
only way god is a possibility.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 26th, 2016 at 6:24:29 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Uhm, the story of Moses and others is exactly god dictating to us from on high.

Those messages anf moments ARE gone. They don't happen now. If you believe that they ever happened, then you know they haven't happened for over 2599 years.

There would be no need for interpretation and misunderstanding if god spoke to us in the way that he supposedly did in the past.

I am completely not buying the argument that he doesn't because he wants us to have free will and therefore won't directly tell us what he wants. You know, like he did in thr past. Didn't seem to be a problem then.

Telling us clearly what he wants is also not the same thing as tellling us what to do. Of course, for 2000 years now he has done neither, again if you believe that he ever did so in the first place.

Even Jesus claiming to be telling us what god wants is second-hand, and even worse than a committee since it is being dictated from one person and taken completely on faith that what HE said is even what god really wants.

And about him being god or the son of god - "if you think I am, then I am". Really? That is his claim and his proof?

Yes, I know I am not the first to come up with these questions. That isn't license to dismiss them, and there still aren't satisfactory explanations.

Open my mind and heart to him and you will hear him? Not good enough.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
May 26th, 2016 at 6:33:55 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Dalex64
Open my mind and heart to him and you will hear him? Not good enough.


To find god, or pixies, or fairies, or wood nymphs,
or unicorns, or leprechauns, or ET's, you first have
to believe they exist. After that your imagination
fills in all the blanks. Humans are terribly prone to
self manipulation.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 26th, 2016 at 8:43:00 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64

There would be no need for interpretation and misunderstanding if god spoke to us in the way that he supposedly did in the past.


Oh, because Adam, Eve, Moses, Noah, and everybody got it so right? Read your Bible again my friend.

Quote:
I am completely not buying the argument that he doesn't because he wants us to have free will and therefore won't directly tell us what he wants. You know, like he did in thr past. Didn't seem to be a problem then.


No the free will argument comes in when we are listening and deciding if we should do what God asks of us. God can tell us what He wants, but again that is not His M.O. despite what you think you read in the Bible. The key again to understanding this is to think of a relationship and not a servant/master, but rather one of friends.

Quote:
Telling us clearly what he wants is also not the same thing as tellling us what to do.


In the former case it is often us who mess up the message and in the latter case He is not interested in doing that. Think of your best friend, does he always tell you clearly what he wants. I imagine if he is truly a friend he doesn't often just tell you what to do.

Quote:
Even Jesus claiming to be telling us what god wants is second-hand, and even worse than a committee since it is being dictated from one person and taken completely on faith that what HE said is even what god really wants.


There are many first hand accounts and from the moment of the Resurrection this is what people believed about Jesus. If you want in a different thread we can discuss the many verses that prove this.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
Page 23 of 25« First<202122232425>