Defund Planned Parenthood

August 25th, 2015 at 2:09:00 AM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
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Quote: FrGamble
... The sad injustice you should be railing against is..
I like to think of it more as "raging against the machine"


Quote:
If you think pregnancy is a punishment for having sex
I believe I said "people shouldn't be punished for having sex". Do you think they should? Should a man be punished for ejaculating? Is it some spiritual failure to have wet dreams?
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
August 25th, 2015 at 6:32:13 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
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Quote: rxwine
We evolved, but some other life on Earth in effect, under the right circumstances could also evolve to our same level. Not sure that the Earth conditions would remain stable enough, just saying it could happen.


It would be interesting to test some evolutionary hypotheses on chimpanzees. For instance, suppose we taught them to make tools, then leave them alone and see what happens. They already use tools (as do many other species), but don't make them. If we taught them, would they continue to make their own and teach the skill to their children? If they do, how would this change them?

Of course, such experiments would take like centuries to complete.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
August 25th, 2015 at 6:57:01 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
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Quote: Face
I find it interesting that one side makes weird statements, usually something about "The person who would've cured cancer got aborted" or other such malarkey to make you think about it. You do realize that the clump of cells you cry for also could've been the next Pol Pot, right?


The odds are overwhelmingly against either. If there are as many births as abortions, yet no living person has cured cancer(*) or become the next mass murdering butcher of a dictatorship, then... oh, wait, there have been mass murderers in Rwanda and Serbia... Maybe they should have been aborted?

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That is not-not-not to say I'm for abortion.


You'll find your position, which I didn't quote entirely, is the most common. Think a minute, what does even "pro-abortion" means? Wanting to spread the practice of abortion in all cases and to all people? bringing pregnancies and births to an end? I dare say you'll find some whack-jobs who believe this, but not many.

What most people who support the possibility and availability of abortion are for is reproductive choice


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But the thought of the type of person who makes bad decisions, then forcing them to bear a child... that's f#$%ed up to me.


Oh, indeed. The argument goes like "This woman is too screwed up and can't even avoid getting pregnant. Now let's force her to maintain a pre-natal health and care regime, and bring up the child she's too screwed up to have kept from conceiving in the first place."

Personally I favor unrestricted abortion on demand during the first trimester. Past that, there is some scope for the law to regulate the practice in varying degrees. The second trimester is rather ambiguous to me, and I haven't made a judgment on what I would support or not. During the third trimester, abortion should be used exclusively in cases where the health or life of the mother are concerned, or even the health or life of one or more babies in cases of multiple pregnancies.

Questions remain about how to do a late-term abortion and what to do afterwards. A 7 month fetus might be viable. An 8 month old certainly is. What to do with them depend son how an abortion is carried out. And that in turn depends on what the health problems with the mother happen to be.

If you want easy answers, there aren't any.

(*) BTW, NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO CURE CANCER.

Sorry for being so emphatic.

Cancer is not a single disease, like measles or the flu, but rather a variety of conditions with much in common. That is to say, cancerous tissue has similar characteristics, but they're all different. That is because different tissues cause different types of cancerous tissues. In fact, there are cures for some types. Take thyroid cancer. It very rarely spreads, and can be cured by destroying the thyroid gland. Of course then the patient needs a lifetime of synthetic thyroid hormones. Prognosis also depends largely on how soon the cancer is detected. If you find a small tumor, unspread, early on, a simple surgery and a course of chemo or radiotherapy often cures it forever.

The thing si if you expect one single treatment to eradicate all forms of cancer, that won't ever happen. Ever.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
August 25th, 2015 at 9:35:42 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18556
Quote: Nareed
It would be interesting to test some evolutionary hypotheses on chimpanzees. For instance, suppose we taught them to make tools, then leave them alone and see what happens. They already use tools (as do many other species), but don't make them. If we taught them, would they continue to make their own and teach the skill to their children? If they do, how would this change them?

Of course, such experiments would take like centuries to complete.


I'm kind of seeing why two species might not evolve to the same advanced level. One might feel threatened by the other and wipe it out eventually.

The last sentence of my argument I will put first: Imagine some humans encountering spear throwing chimps for the first time.

You might introduce tool use in the same fashion as humans advanced. The termite stick. You show how to sharpen it to the pointy stick. You begin to show uses for pointy sticks. The stone is shaped as a better grinding or smashing tool. How to use vine (or rope maybe)

The chimpanzee needs to see the usefulness of continuing to use an invention. Food, water, protection, security. Do you eventually get chimps who start imagining more simple inventions. It would be best to train whole troops at once.

But then, my last sentence...
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
August 25th, 2015 at 10:22:57 AM permalink
reno
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 58
Posts: 1384
Quote: Nareed
You'll find your position, which I didn't quote entirely, is the most common. Think a minute, what does even "pro-abortion" means? Wanting to spread the practice of abortion in all cases and to all people? bringing pregnancies and births to an end? I dare say you'll find some whack-jobs who believe this, but not many.

What most people who support the possibility and availability of abortion are for is reproductive choice


The analogy I've used in other threads is that just because I want tobacco to be legal, doesn't mean that I'm pro-tobacco. On the contrary, I'm actually anti-tobacco. But I've come to the conclusion that creating an underground black market of illegal tobacco is worse for society than legalizing & regulating it. Inevitably, there will be many millionaires in the world who made their million$ from tobacco. Do they have blood on their hands? Sure. Should they be imprisoned? No.
August 25th, 2015 at 10:46:08 AM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: reno
The analogy I've used in other threads is that just because I want tobacco to be legal, doesn't mean that I'm pro-tobacco. On the contrary, I'm actually anti-tobacco. But I've come to the conclusion that creating an underground black market of illegal tobacco is worse for society than legalizing & regulating it. Inevitably, there will be many millionaires in the world who made their million$ from tobacco. Do they have blood on their hands? Sure. Should they be imprisoned? No.


Agree with this as well. I'm a tobacco user and I don't apologize for it. I hate it, absolutely loathe it, but whatever. If my kid uses it, I will kill him before the tobacco can, but still, it doesn't change my stance that it should be legal. Same with booze and drugs and the rest, and for the exact same reason. Just as the criminalization of drugs does zero to prevent and only creates a huge, underground, violent black market, so too would it for cigs, booze, and yes, abortions.

There's a reason that coat hangers and shop vacs have become a crude joke. The reason is two fold - one, because it's true, and two, because we no longer live in a society where that action is necessary. Ban abortions and it will no longer be a joke. It'll just be a sad reality.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
August 25th, 2015 at 11:08:18 AM permalink
reno
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 58
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Quote: Face
Just as the criminalization of drugs does zero to prevent and only creates a huge, underground, violent black market, so too would it for cigs, booze, and yes, abortions.


Yeah, black markets often do more harm to individuals and society than the vice itself does.

Guns, marijuana, shrooms, abortion, (adult) pornography, and (adult) prostitution should be legal & regulated.

I'm ok with euthanasia in certain circumstances, (though it ought to be very tightly regulated with lots of oversight, paperwork, red tape, & bureacracy.)

But child pornography? Criminalize it. I recognize that criminalizing that awful stuff will create a black market, but I think I'd rather there be a black market for child porn than a legal market.

It gets tricky with hard drugs like heroin, crack, & meth. I'm on the fence, I really can't decide. The drug warriors have a rational argument on hard drugs, as much as I abhor nanny government and the DEA.
August 25th, 2015 at 11:39:58 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: rxwine
I'm kind of seeing why two species might not evolve to the same advanced level. One might feel threatened by the other and wipe it out eventually.


It's been a long time since a living Neanderthal was last seen.

That said, it's now accepted we carry some Neanderthal genes. Make of that what you will.


Quote:
The last sentence of my argument I will put first: Imagine some humans encountering spear throwing chimps for the first time.


If you didn't know they were part of an experiment, you'd freak out even if they were clearly not threatening you.

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The chimpanzee needs to see the usefulness of continuing to use an invention. Food, water, protection, security. Do you eventually get chimps who start imagining more simple inventions. It would be best to train whole troops at once.

But then, my last sentence...


It's hard to say how much chimps understand, remember and teach. I wonder if there are any studies of generations of lab-raised chimps, or zoo-raised chimps. We've done quite a number on dogs and cats when we domesticated them (I'm sure cats would object to that characterization), not to mention even bigger changes to cows, sheep, goats, chickens, sheep, etc. We haven't kept chimps nearly that long, i.e. tens of thousands of years, so you won't expect changes in a few generations. But it would be interesting to know.

In this case "troop" is merely the leftover of a medieval English affectation.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
August 25th, 2015 at 12:18:19 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Face
Same with booze and drugs and the rest, and for the exact same reason. Just as the criminalization of drugs does zero to prevent and only creates a huge, underground, violent black market, so too would it for cigs, booze, and yes, abortions.


I've often wondered whether the US might turn into a super-intellectual powerhouse if education were outlawed and a war on learning were declared....

Seriously, it is possible that drug legalization could drive up the consumption of such things. Comparisons to alcohol are iffy, because 1) most adults can consume some alcohol without getting high, 2) even when intoxicated, there are levels of how high one gets. Other drugs are more all-or-nothing, though I understand pot isn't quite.

Still, what's undeniable is the violent illegal market, and many of the efforts to fight drugs (don't forget that), certainly cause more harm than the drugs themselves ever could. I read an article on bail practices in NYC recently. One story involved a man arrested, held in jail pending trial (he couldn't pay bail) where he got beat up badly, all for buying a soda and carrying a straw. Why? Because the police classed the straw as "drug paraphernalia."

So it's also possible that making abortion legal increases the demand for it. I wouldn't say that's good, but neither is it the disaster or catastrophe some make it out to be. For one thing, abortion was LEGAL in several states before the Roe v Wade decision. For another, what matters isn't so much the total number of abortions, but the rate of abortions to pregnancies (taking miscarriages into account).

BTW, most people don't know how many pregnancies end in miscarriage. Most scientists don't really know, either. But since methods were developed to test for pregnancies earlier, it turns out many more than expected or suspected end in miscarriage, long before the women in question even suspect they may be pregnant. There's a widespread suspicion, too, many fertilized ova begin to divide, then fail to attach to the uterine wall. That would count, technically, as a miscarriage.

So if we were to grant the premise that some deity created humanity by some design, then that deity is the biggest killer of human fetuses bar none.

The Good News is there are no deities. I tall comes down to evolution, which doesn't need to be perfect but merely good enough.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
August 25th, 2015 at 12:24:09 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: reno
But child pornography? Criminalize it. I recognize that criminalizing that awful stuff will create a black market, but I think I'd rather there be a black market for child porn than a legal market.


There's a very big difference for that case. Unlike drugs, abortion, guns, tobacco, etc, it requires the participation of a child who cannot possibly consent to it. it's the same as human trafficking as far as consent goes. Either there isn't any, or it is coerced by force. Either way it should be banned.

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It gets tricky with hard drugs like heroin, crack, & meth. I'm on the fence, I really can't decide. The drug warriors have a rational argument on hard drugs, as much as I abhor nanny government and the DEA.


I'm convinced the black market and the attempts to enforce it cause more harm than the drugs themselves. It's a complicated subject, true, which should be discussed in tis own thread.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER