Very sad story

This is the best story of the translations
I've read. Instead of Wycliffe changing
the NT to read the way he wanted it
to, as the Church accused him of, "the
first edition was slavishly literal—even
to the point of retaining the Latin word
order when it made no sense in English!"

He did a word for word translation from
the Latin, nobody in his time understood
the Greek anymore. Then along comes
Tyndale 30 years later and produces the
masterpiece from the Greek and Hebrew.

His translation "heavily influenced the KJV: In 1940, Prof. J. Isaacs wrote of Tyndale’s accomplishment: “His simple directness, his magical simplicity of phrase, his modest music, have given an authority to his wording that has imposed itself on all later versions.… Nine-tenths of the Authorized New Testament is still Tindale, and the best is still his.”

Tyndale's translation, that was supposedly
chock full of so much heresy that the Vatican had
him burned at the stake:

"He was kidnapped in 1535 in Antwerp, and burned at the stake the next year for heresy. His charge? A corrupt translation of the Bible. The reality? A superb translation of the Bible."

90% of his work was used almost word for word in the Bible still used today,
the King James Version.

None of this is in dispute, there are originals
of Wycliffe's and Tyndale's Bibles still around.

https://bible.org/seriespage/1-wycliffe-king-james-period-challenge

I think we are reading from different and biased histories here Evenbob. Some reality check might be in order. King Henry VIII condemned repeatedly the Tyndale translation; therefore I find it hard to believe that 90% of this poor translation found itself into a work that originally Henry VIII commissioned. You also have to remember that along with a translation of the Bible come prefaces, introductions, and notes. These too can be heretical and misleading no matter how literal you may attempt to make your translation.

Just found out why Henry VIII didn't like Tyndale or his translations that much. Apparently, Tyndale was against the king's famous divorce. That might explain away the King's condemnation of his translation and pretty much neuter my above post. Sorry about that.

Quote: FrGamble

Just found out why Henry VIII didn't like Tyndale or his translations that much. Apparently, Tyndale was against the king's famous divorce. That might explain away the King's condemnation of his translation and pretty much neuter my above post. Sorry about that.

It doesn't matter. We have original Tyndale
Bibles, we know exactly what they say. It's
the gold standard for translations of it's
day. The Church, no matter what they've
told you, only had an ironclad hand on the
people as long as they completely controlled
the written word. Once the truth got out, that
the Church had mislead people about what
the Bible contained, their worst nightmare
came true, the Reformation.

Did you read any of the long article I linked
to on Sat, that said how scarce the Bible was
in the world in the Middle Ages? The Vatican
could have been cranking out hundreds of
copies of the NT a year for hundreds of years,
yet they did not. Most Churches had no written
word at all, the priests had passages memorized
that were chosen for them. They had no access
to a the whole NT. In fact, if a priest was caught
with a written NT, he was dealt with very harshly.

Quote: Face

I hope you don't take this as an attack, but how can you think this and still have your logic processor give the OK?

Bible is the word of God, no? And God is infallible. So if you kill yourself, you go to hell.

WE, us people here, have advanced in psychology. God, He created it. He knows the rules, He knows how we react in all situations. How can our understanding change God's knowledge?

Also, I get what you said in your post. Oftentimes, perhaps in Robin Williams' case, the mind gets so bent that, yeah, I can see the church assuming one's mind isn't right, so it wasn't a "willful choice". However, there are many people who are completely fit of mind, but, I dunno, are drowning in their own lung fluid due to emphysema or some other terrible, slow death. These people deserve hell, while the critically depressed get a pass?

C'mon, man. The church is just doing what every single other thing does - changing with the times to stay relevant.

Where in the Bible does it say that if a person commits suicide he or she goes to hell?

Quote: Evenbob

We have original Tyndale
Bibles, we know exactly what they say. It's
the gold standard for translations of it's
day.

No the gold standard was the Vulgate.

Quote:

Once the truth got out, that
the Church had mislead people about what
the Bible contained, their worst nightmare
came true, the Reformation.

This is pure poppycock and propaganda. The Church was not misleading anyone. Look we still have the same teachings and now everyone is much more literate and the Bible is much more available. If the Church was misleading anyone about what is in Scripture then those false teachings would have been changed based on Biblical research. Biblical research and education and literacy that the Church founded Europe's first universities for.

The Church's best daydream is reformation. The Church like all institutions should be in a constant state of reformation. There were serious problems that needed to be addressed. Martin Luther helped the Church to address and correct these problems. It was pride and the sin of men, many in the Church and in the governments of nations at the time that led to the unfortunate split of Christianity.

Quote:

Did you read any of the long article I linked
to on Sat, that said how scarce the Bible was
in the world in the Middle Ages?

yes.

Quote:

The Vatican
could have been cranking out hundreds of
copies of the NT a year for hundreds of years,
yet they did not.

They created many Bibles and did so as devotion and as works of art. There was not a huge demand for Bibles as the populace could barely read.

Quote:

Most Churches had no written
word at all, the priests had passages memorized
that were chosen for them. They had no access
to a the whole NT. In fact, if a priest was caught
with a written NT, he was dealt with very harshly.

This is just simply not true. There were translations in English and many other languages approved and faithfully done that were encouraged to have - if you had the money. Books were not cheap.

Quote: pew

Where in the Bible does it say that if a person commits suicide he or she goes to hell?

It doesn't say that, but much of the Bible says nothing. It's sort of up to you to figure it out, or so I've been told.

It doesn't take much to find what I mean...

Quote: 1st Corinthians, 19&20

What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost. Your body is God's body. To kill your body is to kill God's body. That is murder, in violation of the Sixth Commandment.

Quote: 1st Corinthians, 19&20

What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

There are few items in the Western canon as repulsive as this one.

If your body is god's and your spirit is god's, why the hell did he bother making you in the first place? I wouldn't treat a dog that way.

No wonder reading the Bible is the surest way to propagate atheism.

Quote: FrGamble

This is just simply not true. There were translations in English.

After Wycliffe, not before. Wycliffe was a
well educated priest at Oxford, he was
appalled at how uninformed the common
priest was about the scriptures. He set
about translating the NT into English for
the benefit of his church, and the Vatican
came unglued. He didn't make a faulty
translation as you claimed earlier, he didn't
make one changing things to his way of
thinking. He made a word for word translation
from the Latin, we have Wycliffe Bibles that
prove it.

The truth, which you will never admit, is the
Church was dead set against the whole Bible
falling into the hands of the people, to the
point they burned translators at the stake and
even dug up their bones decades later and
burned them. The Church was a censor, not
an educator.

Quote: Face

It doesn't say that, but much of the Bible says nothing. It's sort of up to you to figure it out, or so I've been told.

It doesn't take much to find what I mean...

Quote: 1st Corinthians, 19&20

What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost. Your body is God's body. To kill your body is to kill God's body. That is murder, in violation of the Sixth Commandment.

That's cor 6-19-20. Paul is addressing born again believers in those passages. The unregenerate are not temples of the Holy Spirit and are going to hell anyway so the argument would be whether a Christian would be condemned to hell because he or she committed suicide. The bible says no.