Catholic Church Collapsing

September 15th, 2015 at 5:16:44 PM permalink
Wizard
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Quote: FrGamble
Only in the same way science would say that it has found a truth in saying "when I drop an apple it falls to the ground." That is as true as the religious claims of salvation through Jesus Christ. Both have been proven by accumulating probabilities that eventually have led reasonable people to declare such things as truth.


Are you saying equating an apple falling to the ground to "salvation through Jesus Christ" or "claims of salvation through Jesus Christ"? Everyone knows there are claims of salvation but just claims do not make it true. There are plenty of other claims that (insert religion here) is the only true one. Certainly not all religious claims can be correct.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
September 15th, 2015 at 7:50:45 PM permalink
FrGamble
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Certainly not all religious claims can be correct, however for the true believer salvation through (insert religion here) is true in a similar way to the belief that an apple will fall towards the ground. The critique from Evenbob was that the knowledge gained from science was somehow different than that obtained through faith. My claim is that both ways at arriving at truths are the same. A healthy faith has formed and asked questions that have been adequately answered, it has been tested and experienced as real and helpful, and has repeatedly been shown to bring peace, purpose, hope, love, and a better life for the person. I should also add that such faith should be when possible, historically verifiable.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
September 15th, 2015 at 8:28:21 PM permalink
Wizard
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Good post Padre. I won't even disagree with you that faith brings the things you mention. I hope we could agree that the various major religions of the world deliver those same sensations. If so, it would lead me to wonder if the choice of religion isn't so important as the level of belief.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
September 15th, 2015 at 8:28:43 PM permalink
reno
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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In 1122 AD Catholic priests were allowed to marry & have sex, whereas in 1123 AD God changed His infallible mind and voila! no more wives.

Except for certain lucky ducky Catholic priests in Africa. Those priests could have sex with wives. And not just them: Pope Francis recently agreed to the ordination of a married man as a Maronite Catholic priest in St. Louis, Missouri. And not just him: Pope Benedict XVI decided to allow Anglican and Episcopal priests and their congregations to enter the Roman Catholic Church under special provisions that preserve the “Anglican heritage,” including the use of sections of the Book of Common Prayer. As part of that express-aisle process, married Anglican priests have been able to be re-ordained as Roman Catholic priests without having to forsake their wives and children. There are currently 80 U.S. priests who are allowed to sleep with their wives with the Vatican's blessing.

Quote: New York Times
The small cohort of married priests raises several questions. First, are they doing as good a job as other priests? If the church has decided that celibacy confers certain gifts on priests, does it follow that married priests are worse at serving their congregations? Second, wouldn’t celibate priests be a little resentful of colleagues who get to serve the church and have sex too? And third, if the married priests are doing a good job and not provoking envy, why keep the celibacy rule for priests in general?

The Church can't continue to make up silly exceptions to grave, important policies. It undermines their credibility, it makes a mockery of the rules, and it makes fools of the priests gullible enough to remain celibate while a few lucky colleagues get to enjoy the fabulous touch of a woman.
September 15th, 2015 at 8:35:06 PM permalink
Wizard
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Quote: reno
There are currently 80 U.S. priests who are allowed to sleep with their wives with the Vatican's blessing.


I hope that number increases. In my opinion, it just isn't natural for the average man to be celibate. Even monogamous is tough.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
September 15th, 2015 at 9:56:40 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: FrGamble
The critique from Evenbob was that the knowledge gained from science was somehow different than that obtained through faith.


The 'knowledge' gained thru faith is easily
obtained by secular people as well. Faith
isn't needed "to bring peace, purpose, hope,
love, and a better life for the person." Atheists
have zero faith and are just as happy and
purposeful as religious people, some would
more so.

Look at Sweden and Denmark. In both countries
only 17% say they believe in god. Yet they have
some of the most orderly, productive and moral
people on the planet. Faith has nothing to so
anything if you want to lead a good life. In fact
it just gets in the way for many people.

And you continue to use science and faith in the
same sentence, like doing so will magically make
them the same thing. They are not even remotely
'connected for reasons I've already stated a dozen
times.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
September 15th, 2015 at 10:38:31 PM permalink
FrGamble
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reno, I'm not quite sure where your post about priestly celibacy is coming from or what you are trying to say? Celibacy is a discipline freely chosen by the vast majority of priests of the Latin Rite. It is done so for spiritual reasons, in imitation of our Lord, for radical availability, and to witness to a sex saturated world that not having sex will not kill you. I find the tradition of celibacy even more important than the male only priesthood today. I think our world today needs the witness of healthy men who forgo the goods of marriage and fabulous marriage act. We do this to show it is possible and that the relationship we can all form with Jesus Christ is as real and life-giving as any other relationship we may have.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
September 15th, 2015 at 10:44:33 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
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Quote: Evenbob
The 'knowledge' gained thru faith is easily
obtained by secular people as well. Faith
isn't needed "to bring peace, purpose, hope,
love, and a better life for the person."


If these things are possessed by atheists it is not given to them by their non-belief in God. I would argue that such things as purpose and hope are gained by atheists in spite of their philosophical opinions. While the source of a Christian's peace, purpose, hope, love, and better life is directly from Jesus.


Quote:
And you continue to use science and faith in the
same sentence, like doing so will magically make
them the same thing. They are not even remotely
'connected for reasons I've already stated a dozen
times.


They are not the same thing and I have never said or suggested that they are. However, they are very much connected because they both search after the same thing - truth. They do this in different ways each according to their role, ability, and restrictions.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
September 15th, 2015 at 10:54:00 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Wizard
Good post Padre. I won't even disagree with you that faith brings the things you mention. I hope we could agree that the various major religions of the world deliver those same sensations. If so, it would lead me to wonder if the choice of religion isn't so important as the level of belief.


I do believe that God works through various religions and in His loving mercy and infinite patience accepts us where we are, but is always moving us slowly and often unperceptively towards the truth of Jesus Christ. In this sense I do think that the more deeply someone explores, questions, and examines their beliefs the more surely they will be led to Christianity and the Catholic Church. Through no fault of their own I do recognize that this will not happen to many who strongly believe in other faiths; as I said before I trust in God's love and know that He not only knows better than I, but He is working in the lives of my brother and sister believers (and non-believers) in ways I could never even imagine.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
September 15th, 2015 at 11:02:28 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
If these things are possessed by atheists it is not given to them by their non-belief in God.


God is neither here nor there in the equation. You've
convinced yourself god is real, so for you he is.

Quote: FrGamble
hope, love, and better life is directly from Jesus.


Really? Is that why so many prisons are chock
full of Christians, it's Jesus' fault?

Quote: FrGamble
they are very much connected


They are very much unconnected, that's why so
many scientists are atheists.

Quote: FrGamble
I do think that the more deeply someone explores, questions, and examines their beliefs the more surely they will be led to Christianity and the Catholic Church.


Really? I have a friend who was so drawn
to the Church that he became a priest. After
5 years of it he hated the Church so much
that now he's an outspoken atheist. What
happened to him is certainly not unique.

I find that the more I examine my beliefs,
the more repelled I am by the Church. How
can anybody read it's appalling history and
say, hey, I want to be a part of that, sign
me up.

Quote: FrGamble
Celibacy is a discipline freely chosen by the vast majority of priests of the Latin Rite. It is done so for spiritual reasons,.


Actually, no. It was done for economic reasons.
Priests were allowed to marry and have kids
and own property up until about the 12th
century. Instead of leaving their property to
the Church, however, they were often leaving
it to their family. The Church couldn't have
that, so they banned marriage and made celibacy
mandatory. Always follow the money.

And celibacy is not a healthy choice
Your prostate makes the fluid
that is ejaculated during orgasm. Unless it's
ejaculated regularly, an average of two times
a week, this could make for major prostate
problems. This is the cause of so called 'wet dreams',
the body's natural need to ejaculate. It's
especially important not to have a build up
in the prostate when you get older.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.