How often do you fly on Business or First Class

Quote: Pacomartin

~$21,000 one-way London to Abu Dhabi
~$25,500 one-way Abu Dhabi to Sydney
~$40,000 one-way London to Abu Dhabi to Sydney

That's a lot of money. Two first class seats one way in a Singapore Airlines A380 nonstop Total travel time 12hrs 50mins $15,000 (Including taxes and surcharges)
($7500 per one way ticket)

I checked Star Alliance RTW fare, and a first class ticket from
1) New York to London
2) London to Singapore
3) Singapore to Sydney
4) Sydney to LAX
5) LAX to NYC

would be about $15,000 . An Economy RTW ticket would be about $4500.

Quote: Pacomartin

I checked Star Alliance RTW fare, and a first class ticket from

The first ever 747 I ever flew in was a Pan Am flight from MEX to Houston. At the time I was an assiduous collector, if I may exaggerate, of airline schedule books (I wish I'd kept any...) Naturally o grabbed one from Pan Am on that trip. And I looked up our flight. It was Flight 51. I remember because it struck me as odd for a flight number to have fewer than three digits. I mean, it wasn't even Flight 051. Just 51.(*)

It turned out the flight came from South America, and from IAH it proceeded to NYC, then London, somewhere else in Europe, various destinations in Asia, including India. My memory gets fuzzy after that, but I think it went round the world and back to South America, MEX, IAH, etc. All with the same flight number.

I didn't know Round The World trips where still a thing. It seems odd to see a website dedicated to that, kind of like finding online tickets for a steamer heading to Europe...


(*) One thing I recall from flying in earlier times was writing down, or memorizing, the flight number. Typically that was how you kept, minimal, track of it. You might call the airline and ask about it, or look it up on the big board at the airport, or on TV screens scattered about (B&W cathode ray monstrosities, if you must know).

These days the flight number might as well be classified. It's not, of course. It's still printed on the boarding pass, too. I just don't pay any attention to it any more.

Quote: Nareed

I didn't know Round The World trips where still a thing. It seems odd to see a website dedicated to that, kind of like finding online tickets for a steamer heading to Europe...

A few airlines like United had round the world flights on their own planes in the 1990s. All those routes have vanished, but with the airline alliances RTW trips are more popular than ever.

RTW alliance trips were conceived of as primarily deluxe backpacker trip. However, with Hong Kong and Singapore popular business destinations, the business flyer could easily take a RTW trip if it saves him money. So the original RTW trips required at least four layovers and a minimum of two week stay. Now they have a wide range of RTW trips that can accommodate all classes of flyers.

The original alliances were a little short on Asian airlines, which created limited options.

14 May 1997,Star Alliance – (5) United Airlines, Air Canada, Lufthansa, Scandinavian Airlines, & Thai Airways International.
1 February 1999,One World– (5) American Airlines, Canadian Airlines, British Airways,Qantas, and Cathay Pacific
22 June 2000, SkyTeam – (4) Delta Air Lines, Aeroméxico, Air France, and Korean Air.

Quote: Pacomartin

A few airlines like United had round the world flights on their own planes in the 1990s. All those routes have vanished, but with the airline alliances RTW trips are more popular than ever.

RTW alliance trips were conceived of as primarily deluxe backpacker trip. However, with Hong Kong and Singapore popular business destinations, the business flyer could easily take a RTW trip if it saves him money. So the original RTW trips required at least four layovers and a minimum of two week stay. Now they have a wide range of RTW trips that can accommodate all classes of flyers.

The original alliances were a little short on Asian airlines, which created limited options.

14 May 1997,Star Alliance – (5) United Airlines, Air Canada, Lufthansa, Scandinavian Airlines, & Thai Airways International.
1 February 1999,One World– (5) American Airlines, Canadian Airlines, British Airways,Qantas, and Cathay Pacific
22 June 2000, SkyTeam – (4) Delta Air Lines, Aeroméxico, Air France, and Korean Air.

I book a lot of round the world but don't book specific RTW fares. Mostly go with Star Alliance
Its usually USA to China (usually PEK or WUH) United/CA in China
China to India (Usually PNQ or nearby BOM) Air China or whatever is convenient
India to Germany (usually FRA) Lufthansa
Germany back to the USA - UA LH

Quote: Pacomartin

A few airlines like United had round the world flights on their own planes in the 1990s.

That late?

I mostly recall the notion of RTW as a device used in jokes, literature and cartoons. Often as prizes won in raffles or game shows.

But also Clarke liked to compare the costs of placing a person in Earth orbit with the price of a round the world ticket.

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RTW alliance trips were conceived of as primarily deluxe backpacker trip. However, with Hong Kong and Singapore popular business destinations, the business flyer could easily take a RTW trip if it saves him money.

I could see someone flying west to Asia, then continuing westward to Europe and thence to NYC or Washington. But I'd be surprised if this were common.

Back on topic, I'm becoming interested in all-business class small and mid-size planes used for trips from NYC to London or Paris. Besides BA having given two such flights Concorde's old flight numbers, there's one existing company flying 757s on such configuration on those routes. Their idea is to offer a cheaper business class price point compared to regular airlines. Past startups trying to do this failed in the end. But perhaps new startups can learn from their mistakes.

It makes sense for business class to cost less if you have more of it in stock.

But then wouldn't it make more sense for established airlines, with large fleets and infrastructure, to offer a lower cost all-business class model? Maybe not, as they would be competing against their business class offerings on their wide body flights. They might even kill the class on their wide bodies, when it's an important source of revenue. Then again maybe so, as they'd sell more business class seats if these were cheaper.

I have to think the big airlines like AA, United, BA, AF, Lufthansa et al have considered the notion. But perhaps the imminent arrival of the 737 MAX will give them a little added incentive.

Quote: terapined

I book a lot of round the world but don't book specific RTW fares.

Specifically RTW fares have broadened recently, but most are still geared at the leisure traveler. Some of them can be incredibly cheap if you are willing to be bumped at the last minute.


In the Navy given the heavy dependence on Honolulu, Tokyo and London on our operations, many of the Captains would bag a RTW trip for work.

Quote: Nareed

Back on topic, I'm becoming interested in all-business class small and mid-size planes used for trips from NYC to London or Paris

It's an idea that recirculates every few years.

MGM Grand Air flew DC-8 and Boeing 727 aircraft (remember those?) between New York and both Las Vegas and Los Angeles as well as 727's configured for 34 passengers. They also flew between LA and Montego Bay, Jamaica.

MaxJet filed for Chapter 11 in late 2007, EOS went belly up in April 2008, and SilverJet stopped flying the following month, all of them blaming the recession for their failure.

We mentioned the Singapore Airlines' business-only Newark to Singapore daily flight, and s all-biz class nonstop from Los Angeles to Singapore,
Plus the British Airways' twice-daily service between New York's JFK and London City Airport (LCY), using the concorde flight numbers.
Three other airlines—Lufthansa, KLM and Swiss—contract with a company called PrivatAir to operate all-business-class service on several routes, among them Newark to Zurich, Houston to Amsterdam, and Munich to Riyadh. We also talked about the Norway to Houston run, which was replaced by the Houston to Amsterdam run.

BA owns OpenSkies, which flies business class-only flights between Newark and Washington to Paris.

At London's City Airport, you can check in for British Airways' flights to New York as few as 15 minutes before departure.

Quote: Pacomartin

It's an idea that recirculates every few years.

That's when one wonders if it's insanity, as it has failed repeatedly, or whether it's a good idea that just needs some improvements in order to work.

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and Boeing 727 aircraft (remember those?)

Remember? They're one of my all-time favorite aircraft, especially those with a 3-2 seating arrangement.

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Plus the British Airways' twice-daily service between New York's JFK and London City Airport (LCY), using the concorde flight numbers.

The thing here, according to my reading, is those flights charge a bit more than business class on a wide body flight.

I'm thinking about a (relative) low-cost all-business class option. This would be easier for a large airline to do, because they have the infrastructure and other fares to back them up. But those operating wide body, long haul flights wouldn't be interested because they'd be undercutting themselves.

So imagine this:

Let's take a large (or largish) airline with a fleet and a low-cost model. Say Interjet, for example. They have a fleet of A-320s already, and some SU-100s. Suppose they configure one A-320 as all-business class with the following: 2-2 seating, lie-flat seats, nice meals and drinks on-board, WiFi, power ports, but rather than a seat-back screen they carry tablets for the passengers to use (preloaded with a ton of media, and capable of streaming through WiFi as well).

Since they're making use of their main type, of which they own plenty, they will have the same savings in maintenance and training as on their regular fleet. Plus Interjet owns a certified A-320 family maintenance facility in Toluca (I've seen it from the outside).

Where would they fly? Aye, there's the rub. I'm thinking MEX-JFK-London, if they can secure things legally. Would they have enough takers? Maybe if the ticket price were substantially less than a regular business class ticket, say 30-50% less. If you can get it at 50% less than the industry average, you may even hook leisure travelers with class-envy, or those flying on special occasions, or willing to splurge a little. You'd get any and all corporate flights already paying for business in other airlines.

I don't think there are loss leaders per se in commercial aviation, but this might work as a prestige/publicity flight to get the brand known elsewhere. The idea of an exclusive business-class flight would kind of complement Interjet's regular seats, which are economy plus in all but name (and meal service).

What do you think?

Here's another idea: lie-flat economy plus seats.

This is probably unworkable, as the room these would take would require removing several regular economy seats, bringing the ticket cost too close to regular business class territory, even if you didn't offer other business class perks (meals, amenities, drinks, etc.)

Quote: Nareed

I'm thinking about a (relative) low-cost all-business class option.

I really like this idea. I checked, and the regular A-320 ceo can easily reach London and Paris from JFK.

But there's plenty I don't know, in particular the economics of the idea. For example, while an A320 can fly that far, it would require ETOPS certification, and that costs money. Redoing the interior also costs money. The flight crew wouldn't need further training, but you'd need to train cabin crew both for the type of service and the new configuration.

Not that I'll look much further into it. Not for now. Even if it's doable, what can I do about it? it's not like I keep an airline stashed away in a corner :)

But I can use it for a story if I ever think of one.