Hey FrGamble!

I don't think either of us have a problem with things changing. A good exercise will be for you to think about that paper going backwards. It started as a tree that tree started as a seed from another tree from another tree and on it goes. Eventually you get back to the first tree. Where do you go from there? What about the planet earth eventually you get to the formation of the planet Earth and then you keep going back all the way to the beginning of the solar system and then the universe. I think you see that you can't keep going back infinitely. Eventually you get to an absolute beginning. I think you see that and that is where you end up needing a first cause aka God.

Quote: FrGamble

Eventually you get to an absolute beginning. .

You really refuse to get this.
If the space the galaxies
exist in, the universe, has
always been here forever,
there is no beginning or end.
You're so hung up on the theory
that EVERYTHING had a
beginning, you can't conceive
of 'always existing'.

You should consider going back
to your church's old stance and
quit trying to pound the square
peg of religion into the round
hole of science. Pick one and
be done with it, you can't have
both.

This really isn't about religion. Just follow the paper trail backwards and you will see the absurdity of what you are suggesting.

Quote: FrGamble

This really isn't about religion. Just follow the paper trail backwards and you will see the absurdity of what you are suggesting.

What's absurd is your refusal
to admit you understand this
concept. For your religion to
work there has to be a creation
with a definite beginning. You
cannot consider any other option,
so you just ignore them. Nothing
new about that, your Church
did it to Galileo when he proved
the earth orbited the sun. This
was heresy of the highest kind,
we all know how that worked out.

The Vatican made the same argument
you make. It's obvious the sun goes
around the earth. It's obvious the
universe had a beginning. It's not
obvious at all.

You are ignoring the merits of the argument and trying to avoid dealing with the impossibility of your position. I understand why you don't want to talk about it.

By the way you know of course that St. Thomas Aquinas didn't have the advantage of modern cosmology. I'm not sure what you mean about need of the argument. It seems again you are distracting or using some weird ad hominem attack. You are also bringing up false history. You know that Copernicus who came up with Heliocentrism was fine. The Church didn't even forbid Galileo from holding it, just not teaching it till it was proven and better understood. It is not a hersey of any kind to say that the Earth revolves around the sun. You are really confused. Again just stay with the argument why an actual infinite regress is impossible.

Galileo was tried in 1633 and found guilty of heresy and sentenced to imprisonment. Look it up.

How is the theory that the universe has been here forever any more impossible than the theory that the universe was created by some God. The difference is the universe being here forever makes sense and a ceator God makes absolutely no sense.

We live in the eternal moment. The eternal moment has always been here and will always be here. It even feels that way if you let it. I always find it remarkable the people who have friends and relatives who have died are never worried about where that person is now. They know instinctively that everything is fine. It has nothing to do with heaven or hell or reward or punishment. We all instinctively know what we are part of in eternity. It has nothing to do with religion or God.

I have one relative who believes the earth is 6 thousand years old. So I asked about dinosaur bones, and was told god created them artificially old. I guess to fool us?

Quote: Evenbob

Galileo was tried in 1633 and found guilty of heresy and sentenced to imprisonment. Look it up.

It was house arrest, not imprisonment, but he was still punished.

Quote:

How is the theory that the universe has been here forever any more impossible than the theory that the universe was created by some God.

Because the universe having a cause makes logical sense while the idea that material things have existed forever without a cause is logically and scientifically impossible. I don't know how much more clear I can say it.

Quote:

We live in the eternal moment. The eternal moment has always been here and will always be here. It even feels that way if you let it.

So your belief about the idea of things mysteriously existing and moving without a cause is based on a feeling of some "eternal moment"?!? Come on Bob, you can't be serious?

Quote: FrGamble

Because the universe having a cause makes logical sense

Only if you're totally hung up on
causes and beginnings. Just like
the Church did with the sun orbiting
the earth. They painted the picture,
proclaimed it the only logical
hypothesis, and imprisoned you
if you disagreed. Anything that
doesn't fit their narrative is
condemned. Every single thing
about Xtianity has to be doubted
and examined given it's shady
past.

Quote: Evenbob

Only if you're totally hung up on
causes and beginnings. Just like
the Church did with the sun orbiting
the earth. They painted the picture,
proclaimed it the only logical
hypothesis, and imprisoned you
if you disagreed. Anything that
doesn't fit their narrative is
condemned. Every single thing
about Xtianity has to be doubted
and examined given it's shady
past.

Copernicus wasn't imprisoned nor was Galileo for that matter, nor the countless other religious scientists who showed clearly the fact of Heliocentricism.

But we digress, you keep trying to make this about me and the Church or Christianity and it is not. The fact that there is a God is clear using your unaided reason. You mention it only makes sense if you are hung up on causes and beginnings. Those things do not interest you? Don't you want to know the cause of the Coronavirus or your genelogy? Don't you want to think about how Communism began or the evolution of finches? The majority of our study in science, history, etc. is about causes and beginnings. We learn a lot from them and it is what we can know and learn from. You aren't suggesting we look at current day Poland and just assume it has always been there? We would be wrong and we wouldn't learn the fascinating history of that country. If we just said that it looks like the Earth and the Sun have always been here and didn't study their cause and beginnings think of how little we would know. You are hung up on causes and beginnings just as I am, we all are.