Hey FrGamble!

May 21st, 2020 at 4:26:24 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
The fact that there is a God is clear


You think if you say that often
enough it'll be true. It's as
clear as mud, actually. It's
only 'clear' to people who
have a god bias going in. If it
were 'clear' there would be
no scientist atheists.

"US scientists are substantially less likely to hold belief in the supernatural. Interestingly, this difference is far more evident among distinguished scientists: Larson and Withe found that 92% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences reject a belief in God or higher power."

They just lack your 'clarity',
I guess. More than likely
they are the clear ones and
you have the flaws.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 21st, 2020 at 4:36:06 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
You have it kind of right. For those with an anti-God bias it is as clear as mud.

Again there is no real scientist that would ever agree with you that there is no chance God exists. I doubt there is any who would agree with you that material things exist eternally without a cause. You are on the losing side here Bob. Everyone knows there is a first cause to all things. Many don't want to call this cause God, that is okay. It is again not a religious idea it is just pure logic and truth with scientific evidence.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 21st, 2020 at 5:19:45 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
You are in love with axioms. Like, everyone knows there was a first cause! It's clear that God exists! The existence of God is obvious! You think if you shout your axioms long enough and loud enough that will make them true. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. IAt some point you have to have actual proof that your axioms are true

God is only clear an obvious to those who already believe it. The rest of us are waiting for the clear and obvious proof to show up.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 21st, 2020 at 6:28:55 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
What more do you need than:
The Universe and all that is in it began to exist.
Things that began to exist have a cause.
The Universe has a cause.

Even if you ignore the logical impossibility of an actual infinite regress (which you do continue to ignore) and if you continue to ignore the scientific evidence and claim that the universe has always existed without a cause then you can use the same argument for motion, change, life, etc.:
The universe itself is expanding and is full of motion and activity.
Things that are in motion have a cause of that motion.
The universe's motion and activity has a cause.

This is why I say it so emphatically. It is inescapable that there is a all powerful cause of all that exists, moves, and has its being. Keep your irrational disdain for religion out of it and just deal with the arguments.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 21st, 2020 at 7:05:12 PM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
Quote: FrGamble
You have it kind of right. For those with an anti-God bias it is as clear as mud.

Again there is no real scientist that would ever agree with you that there is no chance God exists. I doubt there is any who would agree with you that material things exist eternally without a cause. You are on the losing side here Bob. Everyone knows there is a first cause to all things. Many don't want to call this cause God, that is okay. It is again not a religious idea it is just pure logic and truth with scientific evidence.



Padre - atheists are not "anti-God"
We can't be as we do not believe there is even a God to be pitted against
May 21st, 2020 at 8:01:59 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: aceofspades
Padre - atheists are not "anti-God"
We can't be as we do not believe there is even a God to be pitted against


I know atheists aren't always anti-God, in fact I don't think they are really atheists. Most atheists I know fall into a couple of categories:
- believe there is a mysterious supernatural force but believe no one will or can understand it.
- believe that nothing can be known outside of the observable and experiential scientific knowledge so they reject even the question of God, but not God Himself.
- have strong anti-religious sentiment, usually because of misunderstanding or negative experiences, and call themselves atheists to reject religion not so much the concept of God.

N.B. None of these "atheists" would ever reject out of hand the possibility of God and when pushed will acknowledge the reality of God but for various reasons refuse to believe.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 21st, 2020 at 9:52:22 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble

The Universe and all that is in it began to exist.
.


You think that just repeating this
over and over and over makes
it true. It universe, the thing the
galaxies are in, is far more likely
to have been here forever, than
to have been created by some
nebulous super blob of an
invisible god. That's the kind
of thing uneducated ignorant
nomads dream up. Oh, wait,
they DID dream it up.

I understand, you have to
toe the line of you think
you see a creation so there
must be a creator. I'm under
no such limited restrictions,
I can easily think outside that
tiny box.

The only reason all your 'logic' makes
sense to you is because you've
already reached your conclusion.
When you reverse engineer it
you come to your god every
time. That's not how all of this
works. It's why 92% of the members
of the National Academy of Sciences 
 are atheists. They don't live in your box.
They have no filters to peer thru, they
see no god.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 21st, 2020 at 10:03:43 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: aceofspades
Padre - atheists are not "anti-God"
We can't be as we do not believe there is even a God to be pitted against


A theist will never understand
this. I'm not anti-god, how could
I be. It would be like being anti-
unicorn. How can you be against
something that doesn't exist.
I'm 100% for there being
a god. Show me the proof, show
me the god. They can't even give
a logical reason for what believing
in a god gets you. That's what
religion is for. Once you find
the god, religion has written all the
rules you must now follow. It's
the oldest scam in history.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
May 22nd, 2020 at 4:52:33 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
It universe, the thing the
galaxies are in, is far more likely
to have been here forever, than
to have been created by some
nebulous super blob of an
invisible god.


Why do you say that? Please back up that comment. Before you do let me back up why I and the vast majority of the scientific community say it has a beginning. The Universe has a cause because it has been discovered through all kinds of evidence to be expanding and there seems to be the remnants or echo or an event that caused the universe to begin from a moment we commonly refer to as the Big Bang. Outside of science I think the universe has a beginning and a cause there cannot be an actual infinite regress, the material universe is not necessarily here and does not have the reason for its existence in itself, therefore it is contingent. Contingent things that come into being need causes. Material things cannot exist without some cause. Everyone knows this.

Now your turn? Back up your belief that the universe has been here forever. What are your reasons?

Quote:
That's the kind
of thing uneducated ignorant
nomads dream up.


I really don't want to get you upset, but read a couple of posts back where you claimed that the universe has always existed because it just feels like it has. Compare that to something a nomad might dream up.


Quote:
The only reason all your 'logic' makes
sense to you is because you've
already reached your conclusion.
When you reverse engineer it
you come to your god every
time. That's not how all of this
works.


That is how none of this works. Come on Bob, logic is exactly what protects us from such wishful thinking and engineered conclusions. If that was the case you could point to faulty conclusions or for contrived and false premises. But you can't. You have lost and now you are just grasping at straws. Point out the flaws or better yet present some of your own logical arguments for atheism?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
May 22nd, 2020 at 8:14:42 AM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
Quote: FrGamble
I know atheists aren't always anti-God, in fact I don't think they are really atheists. Most atheists I know fall into a couple of categories:
- believe there is a mysterious supernatural force but believe no one will or can understand it.
- believe that nothing can be known outside of the observable and experiential scientific knowledge so they reject even the question of God, but not God Himself.
- have strong anti-religious sentiment, usually because of misunderstanding or negative experiences, and call themselves atheists to reject religion not so much the concept of God.

N.B. None of these "atheists" would ever reject out of hand the possibility of God and when pushed will acknowledge the reality of God but for various reasons refuse to believe.



Here's the thing - it is exactly like Bob said - atheists feel the same way about God as they do about unicorns, leprechauns and trolls

You have been conditioned to believe in a God because someone told you during your formative years that such a being existed