Hey FrGamble!

July 7th, 2020 at 10:18:32 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: aceofspades

How about all the religions prior to Christianity that Christianity stole from (i.e. virgin birth, Greek God Dionysus, Saturnalia (Christmas), Eosturmonath (Easter), etc.)


What virgin birth are you talking about? Are you sure it is the same thing as what Christians believe? Why do you mention Dionysus? I don't think Saturnalia was on December 25th if that is what you were getting at? An old fertility god during a month in the spring, I'm not sure what you think Christians stole? Remember that unlike these myths you mention there is historical accounts of Jesus Christ.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
July 7th, 2020 at 11:01:22 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Actually they weren't.


Wow, you are so wrong. They had
gods they worshiped privately,
gods they were afraid of and
tried to appease, gods they asked
favors of. They were every bit as
involved as you are with yours.

Quote:
of course these myths never speak of an incarnation.


HUH???

"Incarnation is a central tenet of Indian religions, namely Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Hinduism. It is an esoteric belief in many streams of Orthodox Judaism and is found (in different forms) in some beliefs of North American Natives and some Indigenous Australians."

Quote:
It is the greatest thing that ever happened, because in this case it actually happened.


Except that it happened many
times in other myths. That
can't be proven any more than
you can prove it happened in
yours. Xtians love to take myth
and conjecture and state it as
facts, like that somehow makes
it true.

Quote:
Is that really what you think?


Absolutely. Paul invented the religion,
and it took off from there. If it hadn't
been adopted by the Roman Empire
and used it's tactics of stomping out
all the competition, which was Rome's
MO, Xtianity would have died out.
There is nothing new about it, the
only reason it survived was it's ruthless
tactics for expansion and gathering
wealth by any means possible. This
is well recorded in history, something
your church constantly tries to rewrite.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 7th, 2020 at 5:19:14 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
They had
gods they worshiped privately,


Okay that is a big difference right there. Did you notice your plural use of "gods", nothing similar about that.

Quote:
gods they were afraid of and
tried to appease,


Again nothing similar about that. No fear in my love for Jesus and no need to try and appease a God who loves me unconditionally.

It looks like you are wrong and there are huge differences.


Quote:
"Incarnation is a central tenet of Indian religions, namely Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Hinduism. It is an esoteric belief in many streams of Orthodox Judaism and is found (in different forms) in some beliefs of North American Natives and some Indigenous Australians."


Huh??? Does any other religion believe that God became a human being, fully God and fully man. I think you mean that some religions speak of God taking a human form or visiting Earth, not fully and forever becoming man. I think you also might be thinking that incarnation means that God is present in creation and we can see His handiwork in the beauty and order of nature. That is something Christians believe as well but it is not the same meaning as Incarnation in a Christian sense.



Quote:
Except that it happened many
times in other myths.


Except it didn't. There is no historical documentation or evidence of these other gods visiting in human or animal form. It is just myths that prove humanity longed for it to truly happen but it did not until the Son became Incarnate in Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Xtians love to take myth
and conjecture and state it as
facts, like that somehow makes
it true.


What makes it true is that it did really happen. Do you deny that Jesus came, preached, was crucified, and His followers preached that He rose from the dead and the faith grew and grew in the face of great persecution to eventually become the largest religion on Earth? These are just facts.



Quote:
Paul invented the religion,
and it took off from there.


You might believe that but it isn't true and certainly not what Christians or Paul himself believed.

Quote:
If it hadn't
been adopted by the Roman Empire
and used it's tactics of stomping out
all the competition, which was Rome's
MO, Xtianity would have died out.


Please read some history. The faith was only made legal first with the Edict of Milan, some 300 years after Christ, and it continued to grow. There were no stomping out the competition. There were no wars or other religions made illegal. The false religions faded away in the face of the truth.

Quote:
the
only reason it survived was it's ruthless
tactics for expansion and gathering
wealth by any means possible.


Wow, do you really believe this? Look again at the poverty of the missionaries and how the faith spread. There was no gathering of wealth or ruthless tactics. Please show me one competent historian that would agree with you or says this. You are just making up myths and history to suit yourself. It is sad really, just deal with the facts and real history. You don't need to just make stuff up. Maybe we should talk about the middle ages where some of the things you are saying are true, but in regards to the early Church and its growth you couldn't be more wrong.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
July 7th, 2020 at 11:46:45 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Again nothing similar about that. No fear in my love for Jesus and no need to try and appease.


What does the agenda of the Greek
gods have to do with people
worshiping them. Just because
they have a different agenda
than your mythical god, you can't
deny them the right of worship.
It's like you're thumbing your nose
at them, not very respectful.

Quote:
Does any other religion believe that God became a human being, fully God and fully man.


Just another 'mystery' that can'r be
explained, how trite. Like the trinity.
Think up puzzles that have no solution
and razzle dazzle the congregation.
They'll think you're oh so smart and
your religion is oh so mysterious.

"Catholic Christianity believes that the identity of Jesus Christ is similar to the nature of God in the sense that both are mysteries which are beyond human understanding." Fr. Ian Ker

I can make up lots of things that
are nonsense and therefore
beyond understanding. So what.

Quote:
There is no historical documentation or evidence of these other gods visiting in human or animal form.


Just like outside the NT there
is zero historical documentation
for the Jesus myth. All you have is
anecdotal hearsay, just like every
myth.

Quote:
Do you deny that Jesus came, preached, was crucified


Oops, stop there. Anything after
that is anecdotal hearsay that,
like all myths, is contradictory
and full of holes. That you claim
them as 'fact' is just desperation
on your part.

Quote:
Please read some history. The faith was only made legal first with the Edict of Milan, some 300 years after Christ, and it continued to grow. There were no stomping out the competition.


You must be joking. There is so
much historical data on this it
would take years to read it all.

"Christianization was Interpretatio Christiana – the practice of converting native pagan practices and culture, pagan religious imagery, pagan sites and the pagan calendar to Christian uses, due to the Christian efforts at proselytism (evangelism) based on the Great Commission."

The process of wiping out the
pagan religions and temples
and converting them to Xtianity
is hugely well documented. It
was systematic stomping out
of the competition to such a
degree we cannot comprehend
it. The human rights violations
performed by the Church were
horrific and devastating. You
ask how the religion grew so
fast? How did Standard Oil
become a worldwide monopoly.
It certainly had nothing to do
with them having the best product.
God fearing man that John Rockefeller
was, he copied the way his religion
grew. He wiped out the competition
thru any means possible until he
and his product were the last ones
standing.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 8th, 2020 at 7:40:44 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob

It's like you're thumbing your nose
at them, not very respectful.


Not at all, I am just showing how different the ideas of worship to God was between the pagans and the Christians. There is a reason why Christianity continues today and put an end to pagan worship. It is not because or some ruthless campaign or violence. The clash of ideas and the discussion of who we are and who God is? When the world encountered the thought of Christianity it dropped old pagan ideas for the new and the true.


Quote:
"Catholic Christianity believes that the identity of Jesus Christ is similar to the nature of God in the sense that both are mysteries which are beyond human understanding." Fr. Ian Ker

I can make up lots of things that
are nonsense and therefore
beyond understanding. So what.


You do make up lots of things that are beyond understanding. The problem is that what you make up isn't grounded in truth, history, or the human experience. Mystery is not a problem for us, there is so much around us that is mysterious and beyond our understanding. However, true mystery reveals some deep truths that we feel and know deep down in us. Jesus Christ reveals truth to us through the mystery.



Quote:
Oops, stop there. Anything after
that is anecdotal hearsay that,
like all myths, is contradictory
and full of holes. That you claim
them as 'fact' is just desperation
on your part.


You cannot stop at the Crucifixion, because the story doesn't end there. History is full of the lives of the saints and the work of the Apostles. It is a unavoidable fact that the Church of Jesus Christ continued to grow to eventually become the largest religion on the face of the earth. You know this. To say that its growth is anecdotal hearsay is just ridiculous. The truth is all around you, even today. It sounds like you are putting your head in the sand and don't want to deal with the extraordinary growth of the Gospel claiming that Christ conquered sin and death. You either ignore it, claim history is hearsay, or make up false historical myths to explain it.


Quote:
The process of wiping out the
pagan religions and temples
and converting them to Xtianity
is hugely well documented..


What are we to do with these old pagan temples that were no longer in use because people had long ago abandoned the pagan gods. It wasn't an attack but a re purposing of buildings whose faith was naturally replaced with one that spoke the truth about God and us. You keep talking about some type of monopoly on religious thought that was never the case. When the Church gained power, politically and worldly, it was the worst time in our history. However, the ideas of Christianity that won over the world in it's beginning when dealing with poverty and persecution are the same. The Church grows when it offers the world nothing but Christ and His teaching. The Church declines when it strives to be worldly and powerful. This fits the reality of its founder Jesus who was greatest in His weakness and in His loving sacrifice. The power of the Gospel that changed the world was not a worldly one but spiritual truths that won the day. Whenever the Church acted like Standard Oil it led to its decline, splintering, and embarrassment.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
July 8th, 2020 at 11:59:31 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Not at all, I am just showing how different the ideas of worship to God was between the pagans and the Christians.


So in your mind they aren't valid
because their gods are different
than yours. They're all equally
valid to me, your god is every
bit as real as theirs. There is just
as much chance of Thor and Athena
being real as there is of your god
existing. At least the Greek and
Roman gods are cool. Your god
is just a blob of who knows what,
floating around out there thinking
about us night and day. Fairly pitiful
as far as gods go..

Quote:
Mystery is not a problem for us


Your church is built on the foundation
of mystery and statements that are
impossible to understand. It's an old
trick, it gets the rabble sucked in
by people smarter that they are. The
priest class was equal to the upper level
management in today's business world.
They ran things, they were the smartest
and best educated.

Quote:
You cannot stop at the Crucifixion, because the story doesn't end there.


But the credibility of the story
stops dead in it's tracks there.
Non eye witness hearsay and
no backup from outside sources
makes most of the NT 4th and 5th
ans 12th hand hearsay. Wishful
thinking, urban legend. Calling it
'factual' is a slap in the face to
thinking people.

Quote:
What are we to do with these old pagan temples that were no longer in use because people had long ago abandoned the pagan gods. .


You mean after the Church kicked
out the pagans and mass converted
them? Most were torn down, many
of the nicer ones were turned into
Church buildings. It's all there in
detail in the written eyewitness
history of many countries. It's
indisputable fact, unlike the NT.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 8th, 2020 at 6:03:17 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Your god
is just a blob of who knows what,
floating around out there thinking
about us night and day. Fairly pitiful
as far as gods go..


My God is a person Jesus Christ who is love incarnate. If I asked you to kindly refrain from such ignorant, insensitive and offensive remarks would it matter?



Quote:
It's an old
trick,


Not as old as avoiding the discussion and just ad hominem attacks without basis.



Quote:
Calling it
'factual' is a slap in the face to
thinking people.


Any thinking person would say that there was obviously something that inspired and motivated the early followers of Jesus Christ after His death on the cross to leave everything and give up their lives to share the Good News of His Resurrection. This inspired sharing of the Gospel continues to this very day. It is a slap on the forehead for any thinking person who just shakes their head at your refusal to look at history literally in front of you. If you don't have an reason for the Churches growth after the Lord's death then just say so. It makes you seem silly to ignore the fact that these early followers of Jesus and the modern ones of today are just acting on hearsay. It doesn't fit the facts and you know that.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
July 8th, 2020 at 9:54:02 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
My God is a person Jesus Christ who is love incarnate.


Jesus is the god who created
the universe, he's the god
of the OT? I thought he was
gods son and sits at the side
of god in heaven. Jesus is
the god who gave Moses
the tablets? Since when. So
of course Jesus knew what
would happen when he died
on the cross, no sacrifice
involved. He was god.

Quote:
Not as old as avoiding the discussion and just ad hominem attacks without basis.


But it's true. Groups have always
used unsolvable mystery's to
lure people in and make them
feel they're part of something
special. Even Eastern groups do
it. Zen gives monks mysterious
questions to solve called koens.
They have no real answer, it can
be different for every monk.
People love that kind of thing.

Quote:
your refusal to look at history literally in front of you.


Except the NT is not history, no
part of is accurate. Watch the
first 10 min of this video. Be
warned, it devastates the
historicity of the NT.

If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 9th, 2020 at 7:01:54 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Jesus is the god who created
the universe, he's the god
of the OT?


Yes, He is the 2nd person of the Most Holy Trinity. The Incarnation is when He becomes man, we have talked about this before and you know the significance of this. Being fully God and fully man means that He is not all knowing in His limited human knowledge yet He has perfect love and trust in His Father, the same love and trust we are called to have as well.


Quote:
Except the NT is not history, no
part of is accurate. Watch the
first 10 min of this video. Be
warned, it devastates the
historicity of the NT.


I do hope you watched the rebuttal as well. There are a few mistakes Ehrman makes. One is the mention of Christ as the cause of the Emperor Claudius expelling the Jews from Rome around the year 50. He also is not very forthcoming in his definition of "mistakes". There is no where near the number of "mistakes" he mentions and if he is referring to differences in puncuation, spelling, or different word order that seems ingenious of him to refer to these as mistakes.

Also his argument about eye witnesses to verify the truth of the Gospels forgets two things. One, that these Churches that exploded in the first 30 years of the early Church (which is something amazing that he just glances over) were because eye witnesses went to preach to these different areas of the world. Secondly, the living Lord Jesus is believed in not because of some eye witness but because the people experience personally themselves the Risen Lord Jesus in their lives, through prayer and the Sacraments. I nor anyone I know were eye witnesses of Jesus' life, yet I have a personal experience of Jesus that is akin to knowing Him as if He was right here with me. That is the experience that leads to these many conversions, the many martyrs and saints, and the growth of Christianity to become the largest religion on Earth. He doesn't even try to explain that fact. The idea that some scribe misspelled a word or copied a line down wrong in a version of the Gospels is not as concerning to someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Oh one more thing, he is being not being fair when he fails to compare what we have of the Bible and what we know of Jesus compared to any other figure of the ancient world. We have tonnes more information about Jesus Christ than we do the most famous emperors and other well know figures of that time. Their lives were scantly attested to and most hundreds or thousands of years before the First attestation.

I do like the fact that he easily admits without a doubt that Jesus of Nazareth is the most important person that has ever lived in history. Do you agree with him on that point?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
July 9th, 2020 at 10:06:11 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Being fully God and fully man


In the myth. In your fantasy. You
state these things like they're
indisputable truth, which they
are not. They're what you hope
is true, your theory, what you've
been told. They have nothing to
do with provable reality.


Quote:
There are a few mistakes Ehrman makes.


And that's all you saw, a few 'mistakes'.
Not the overwhelming evidence that
the entire NT cannot be taken literally
as any kind of truth or history. That
it's handed down stories that were
told and embellished over and over
and over and over and over and over
and over (feel free to add more overs)
until they were written down. And even
then no two are the same. This is
what your religion is based on. This
is what turned Ehrman into an agnostic
and later an atheist. The absolute
unreliable contradictory NT. None
of it can believed, most of it is obviously
made up nonsense by uneducated
people who were the backwoods
'hillbillies' of the time period. The fact
that a religion came out of the mess
proves how backwards these people
were education-wise. How gullible,
how easily manipulated. I'm embarrassed
for them.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.