Hey FrGamble!
July 7th, 2020 at 10:18:32 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
What virgin birth are you talking about? Are you sure it is the same thing as what Christians believe? Why do you mention Dionysus? I don't think Saturnalia was on December 25th if that is what you were getting at? An old fertility god during a month in the spring, I'm not sure what you think Christians stole? Remember that unlike these myths you mention there is historical accounts of Jesus Christ. It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures. ( |
July 7th, 2020 at 11:01:22 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
Wow, you are so wrong. They had gods they worshiped privately, gods they were afraid of and tried to appease, gods they asked favors of. They were every bit as involved as you are with yours.
HUH??? "Incarnation is a central tenet of Indian religions, namely Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Hinduism. It is an esoteric belief in many streams of Orthodox Judaism and is found (in different forms) in some beliefs of North American Natives and some Indigenous Australians."
Except that it happened many times in other myths. That can't be proven any more than you can prove it happened in yours. Xtians love to take myth and conjecture and state it as facts, like that somehow makes it true.
Absolutely. Paul invented the religion, and it took off from there. If it hadn't been adopted by the Roman Empire and used it's tactics of stomping out all the competition, which was Rome's MO, Xtianity would have died out. There is nothing new about it, the only reason it survived was it's ruthless tactics for expansion and gathering wealth by any means possible. This is well recorded in history, something your church constantly tries to rewrite. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
July 7th, 2020 at 5:19:14 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Okay that is a big difference right there. Did you notice your plural use of "gods", nothing similar about that.
Again nothing similar about that. No fear in my love for Jesus and no need to try and appease a God who loves me unconditionally. It looks like you are wrong and there are huge differences.
Huh??? Does any other religion believe that God became a human being, fully God and fully man. I think you mean that some religions speak of God taking a human form or visiting Earth, not fully and forever becoming man. I think you also might be thinking that incarnation means that God is present in creation and we can see His handiwork in the beauty and order of nature. That is something Christians believe as well but it is not the same meaning as Incarnation in a Christian sense.
Except it didn't. There is no historical documentation or evidence of these other gods visiting in human or animal form. It is just myths that prove humanity longed for it to truly happen but it did not until the Son became Incarnate in Jesus Christ.
What makes it true is that it did really happen. Do you deny that Jesus came, preached, was crucified, and His followers preached that He rose from the dead and the faith grew and grew in the face of great persecution to eventually become the largest religion on Earth? These are just facts.
You might believe that but it isn't true and certainly not what Christians or Paul himself believed.
Please read some history. The faith was only made legal first with the Edict of Milan, some 300 years after Christ, and it continued to grow. There were no stomping out the competition. There were no wars or other religions made illegal. The false religions faded away in the face of the truth.
Wow, do you really believe this? Look again at the poverty of the missionaries and how the faith spread. There was no gathering of wealth or ruthless tactics. Please show me one competent historian that would agree with you or says this. You are just making up myths and history to suit yourself. It is sad really, just deal with the facts and real history. You don't need to just make stuff up. Maybe we should talk about the middle ages where some of the things you are saying are true, but in regards to the early Church and its growth you couldn't be more wrong. It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures. ( |
July 7th, 2020 at 11:46:45 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
What does the agenda of the Greek gods have to do with people worshiping them. Just because they have a different agenda than your mythical god, you can't deny them the right of worship. It's like you're thumbing your nose at them, not very respectful.
Just another 'mystery' that can'r be explained, how trite. Like the trinity. Think up puzzles that have no solution and razzle dazzle the congregation. They'll think you're oh so smart and your religion is oh so mysterious. "Catholic Christianity believes that the identity of Jesus Christ is similar to the nature of God in the sense that both are mysteries which are beyond human understanding." Fr. Ian Ker I can make up lots of things that are nonsense and therefore beyond understanding. So what.
Just like outside the NT there is zero historical documentation for the Jesus myth. All you have is anecdotal hearsay, just like every myth.
Oops, stop there. Anything after that is anecdotal hearsay that, like all myths, is contradictory and full of holes. That you claim them as 'fact' is just desperation on your part.
You must be joking. There is so much historical data on this it would take years to read it all. "Christianization was Interpretatio Christiana the practice of converting native pagan practices and culture, pagan religious imagery, pagan sites and the pagan calendar to Christian uses, due to the Christian efforts at proselytism (evangelism) based on the Great Commission." The process of wiping out the pagan religions and temples and converting them to Xtianity is hugely well documented. It was systematic stomping out of the competition to such a degree we cannot comprehend it. The human rights violations performed by the Church were horrific and devastating. You ask how the religion grew so fast? How did Standard Oil become a worldwide monopoly. It certainly had nothing to do with them having the best product. God fearing man that John Rockefeller was, he copied the way his religion grew. He wiped out the competition thru any means possible until he and his product were the last ones standing. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
July 8th, 2020 at 7:40:44 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Not at all, I am just showing how different the ideas of worship to God was between the pagans and the Christians. There is a reason why Christianity continues today and put an end to pagan worship. It is not because or some ruthless campaign or violence. The clash of ideas and the discussion of who we are and who God is? When the world encountered the thought of Christianity it dropped old pagan ideas for the new and the true.
You do make up lots of things that are beyond understanding. The problem is that what you make up isn't grounded in truth, history, or the human experience. Mystery is not a problem for us, there is so much around us that is mysterious and beyond our understanding. However, true mystery reveals some deep truths that we feel and know deep down in us. Jesus Christ reveals truth to us through the mystery.
You cannot stop at the Crucifixion, because the story doesn't end there. History is full of the lives of the saints and the work of the Apostles. It is a unavoidable fact that the Church of Jesus Christ continued to grow to eventually become the largest religion on the face of the earth. You know this. To say that its growth is anecdotal hearsay is just ridiculous. The truth is all around you, even today. It sounds like you are putting your head in the sand and don't want to deal with the extraordinary growth of the Gospel claiming that Christ conquered sin and death. You either ignore it, claim history is hearsay, or make up false historical myths to explain it.
What are we to do with these old pagan temples that were no longer in use because people had long ago abandoned the pagan gods. It wasn't an attack but a re purposing of buildings whose faith was naturally replaced with one that spoke the truth about God and us. You keep talking about some type of monopoly on religious thought that was never the case. When the Church gained power, politically and worldly, it was the worst time in our history. However, the ideas of Christianity that won over the world in it's beginning when dealing with poverty and persecution are the same. The Church grows when it offers the world nothing but Christ and His teaching. The Church declines when it strives to be worldly and powerful. This fits the reality of its founder Jesus who was greatest in His weakness and in His loving sacrifice. The power of the Gospel that changed the world was not a worldly one but spiritual truths that won the day. Whenever the Church acted like Standard Oil it led to its decline, splintering, and embarrassment. It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures. ( |
July 8th, 2020 at 11:59:31 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
So in your mind they aren't valid because their gods are different than yours. They're all equally valid to me, your god is every bit as real as theirs. There is just as much chance of Thor and Athena being real as there is of your god existing. At least the Greek and Roman gods are cool. Your god is just a blob of who knows what, floating around out there thinking about us night and day. Fairly pitiful as far as gods go..
Your church is built on the foundation of mystery and statements that are impossible to understand. It's an old trick, it gets the rabble sucked in by people smarter that they are. The priest class was equal to the upper level management in today's business world. They ran things, they were the smartest and best educated.
But the credibility of the story stops dead in it's tracks there. Non eye witness hearsay and no backup from outside sources makes most of the NT 4th and 5th ans 12th hand hearsay. Wishful thinking, urban legend. Calling it 'factual' is a slap in the face to thinking people.
You mean after the Church kicked out the pagans and mass converted them? Most were torn down, many of the nicer ones were turned into Church buildings. It's all there in detail in the written eyewitness history of many countries. It's indisputable fact, unlike the NT. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
July 8th, 2020 at 6:03:17 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
My God is a person Jesus Christ who is love incarnate. If I asked you to kindly refrain from such ignorant, insensitive and offensive remarks would it matter?
Not as old as avoiding the discussion and just ad hominem attacks without basis.
Any thinking person would say that there was obviously something that inspired and motivated the early followers of Jesus Christ after His death on the cross to leave everything and give up their lives to share the Good News of His Resurrection. This inspired sharing of the Gospel continues to this very day. It is a slap on the forehead for any thinking person who just shakes their head at your refusal to look at history literally in front of you. If you don't have an reason for the Churches growth after the Lord's death then just say so. It makes you seem silly to ignore the fact that these early followers of Jesus and the modern ones of today are just acting on hearsay. It doesn't fit the facts and you know that. It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures. ( |
July 8th, 2020 at 9:54:02 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
Jesus is the god who created the universe, he's the god of the OT? I thought he was gods son and sits at the side of god in heaven. Jesus is the god who gave Moses the tablets? Since when. So of course Jesus knew what would happen when he died on the cross, no sacrifice involved. He was god.
But it's true. Groups have always used unsolvable mystery's to lure people in and make them feel they're part of something special. Even Eastern groups do it. Zen gives monks mysterious questions to solve called koens. They have no real answer, it can be different for every monk. People love that kind of thing.
Except the NT is not history, no part of is accurate. Watch the first 10 min of this video. Be warned, it devastates the historicity of the NT. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
July 9th, 2020 at 7:01:54 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Yes, He is the 2nd person of the Most Holy Trinity. The Incarnation is when He becomes man, we have talked about this before and you know the significance of this. Being fully God and fully man means that He is not all knowing in His limited human knowledge yet He has perfect love and trust in His Father, the same love and trust we are called to have as well.
I do hope you watched the rebuttal as well. There are a few mistakes Ehrman makes. One is the mention of Christ as the cause of the Emperor Claudius expelling the Jews from Rome around the year 50. He also is not very forthcoming in his definition of "mistakes". There is no where near the number of "mistakes" he mentions and if he is referring to differences in puncuation, spelling, or different word order that seems ingenious of him to refer to these as mistakes. Also his argument about eye witnesses to verify the truth of the Gospels forgets two things. One, that these Churches that exploded in the first 30 years of the early Church (which is something amazing that he just glances over) were because eye witnesses went to preach to these different areas of the world. Secondly, the living Lord Jesus is believed in not because of some eye witness but because the people experience personally themselves the Risen Lord Jesus in their lives, through prayer and the Sacraments. I nor anyone I know were eye witnesses of Jesus' life, yet I have a personal experience of Jesus that is akin to knowing Him as if He was right here with me. That is the experience that leads to these many conversions, the many martyrs and saints, and the growth of Christianity to become the largest religion on Earth. He doesn't even try to explain that fact. The idea that some scribe misspelled a word or copied a line down wrong in a version of the Gospels is not as concerning to someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Oh one more thing, he is being not being fair when he fails to compare what we have of the Bible and what we know of Jesus compared to any other figure of the ancient world. We have tonnes more information about Jesus Christ than we do the most famous emperors and other well know figures of that time. Their lives were scantly attested to and most hundreds or thousands of years before the First attestation. I do like the fact that he easily admits without a doubt that Jesus of Nazareth is the most important person that has ever lived in history. Do you agree with him on that point? It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures. ( |
July 9th, 2020 at 10:06:11 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
In the myth. In your fantasy. You state these things like they're indisputable truth, which they are not. They're what you hope is true, your theory, what you've been told. They have nothing to do with provable reality.
And that's all you saw, a few 'mistakes'. Not the overwhelming evidence that the entire NT cannot be taken literally as any kind of truth or history. That it's handed down stories that were told and embellished over and over and over and over and over and over and over (feel free to add more overs) until they were written down. And even then no two are the same. This is what your religion is based on. This is what turned Ehrman into an agnostic and later an atheist. The absolute unreliable contradictory NT. None of it can believed, most of it is obviously made up nonsense by uneducated people who were the backwoods 'hillbillies' of the time period. The fact that a religion came out of the mess proves how backwards these people were education-wise. How gullible, how easily manipulated. I'm embarrassed for them. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |