Hey FrGamble!
October 4th, 2015 at 12:48:51 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
You want me to explain why a never seen, invisible, non responsive, unproven, all knowing, all powerful being is ever the answer to any question for a reasonable person. When the only answer to a question, for you, is god, you either don't understand the question, or don't know the real answer. There is no god, so how can that be an answer.
Why do experiences have to have a meaning outside of what we ourselves take away from it. This is the essence of zen, btw. That you live in the moment and stop projecting yourself all over the place in your mind. A fave zen story: Two monks come to a river and there's a young girl there who can't cross without ruining her clothes. Without a thought a monk picks her up and carriers her across, even though it's against the rules for them to touch a woman. An hour later the other monk breaks the silence and asks why his friend broke the rules and carried the girl. The monk answers, "It was miles ago that I set her down, why are you still carrying her?" If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
October 4th, 2015 at 3:29:58 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
This my friend is the definition of a circular argument! I am only asking you for really two things. A reason why an eternal, non-contingent, all-powerful spiritual being or force that we commonly refer to as God is not the ultimate answer to the ultimate question as to why anything exists. Secondly, if you can demonstrate why God is not the answer can you provide a better or more reasonable answer? This really shouldn't be that hard. We are not going into whether or not this "God" is responsive, loving, all-knowing, etc. The question the Wizard asked is to walk through how reason alone can prove there is a God. We can surely talk somewhere else who and what are the characteristics of that "God" in another thread.
Good story. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
October 4th, 2015 at 4:49:55 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
There is only one honest response I can make to this. It's a 'what if' question. What if god existed. But he doesn't, there is no evidence that he does, so it's moot. For you god is important, for me god is nothing but an abject concept and not a part of my thoughts. You want me to provide a reason why we are here, what's the meaning of life? All of our lives have what ever meaning we give them, it comes from us, not from the outside. Simple as that. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
October 4th, 2015 at 5:28:00 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
One monk is living in the moment, doing what he thinks is right, not god, not his orders rules. He sets the girl down and forgets about it. The other monk is living everywhere else but the moment. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
October 4th, 2015 at 6:28:31 PM permalink | |
petroglyph Member since: Aug 3, 2014 Threads: 25 Posts: 6227 | Cool, we get to do monk jokes now, : ). I got one. A new guy joins up with a monastery and one of the rules is, you only get to speak two words every ten years. So, after the first ten years the new monk goes in to see the Abbot and is asked, "what do you have to say"? The new monk has been saving this for a decade, and he replies, "hard beds", and he goes away. Of course he comes back after ten more years and again is asked what he wanted to say. To which he replies, "bad food". After ten more long years, he goes before the head monk one more time and is asked, well, what is it his time? The monk replies, "I quit". Then the Abbot says to him, you might just as well, all you ever do around here is complain anyway. The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW |
October 4th, 2015 at 6:39:13 PM permalink | |
Dalex64 Member since: Mar 8, 2014 Threads: 3 Posts: 3687 | There has been and there continues to be an alternate explaination - that the universe sprung forth from nothingness without cause. Google "universe from nothing" to see some of the theories. I think one of them involves quantum vacuums. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan |
October 4th, 2015 at 11:12:48 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
This is not a 'what if' question. There is no 'what if' in regards to the existence of things. You exist, I exist, the world exists, the universe exists and for any of this to exist there reasonably must be an answer. The only answer is God for the reasons I have outlined above many times. Again, please hear me, if you have any reasonable objections as to why God exists as the foundation of all things then please make them known. If you have another answer, by all means let me know. If not, then you need to come to grips with the reality of a being or force as described that is commonly known as God. N.B. we are not talking necessarily of the Christian conception of God. You might still conceive of God as unimportant to you or as an impersonal force. The one thing you cannot reasonably do is continue to say God does not exist.
I will leave it to another discussion on another thread to explain the fallacies and problems with this concept of life's meaning. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
October 4th, 2015 at 11:24:03 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
This is not an explanation at all, it solves nothing, and helps with nothing. When I googled as you suggested the really poor book by Lawerance Krauss is the only thing that came up. Here is a good review of that book that is worth a read: A Review of A Universe From Nothing “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
October 5th, 2015 at 12:25:13 AM permalink | |
rxwine Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 188 Posts: 18556 |
I think you're reasoning would be correct if we came upon a bird's nest and found an egg. We have seen birds before, and we have seen birds sitting on eggs. So, we don't necessarily need to see the bird to presume the egg likely came from a bird. But did anyone ever see a god make a Universe? Not even once. We certainly don't have evidence of things coming into existence from supernatural beings to compare with. Not even one. At best you can say, maybe. But "maybe" does not remove all doubt. So, yes, you can reasonably doubt a god existence. So, I guess I've gone farther into god doesn't exist, into a possibility. But that doesn't mean it is only reasonable to say God exists. Maybe doesn't bring you that far. You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really? |
October 5th, 2015 at 1:10:23 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
I only have the one, which my good friend Edward puts at the start of all his videos. He's a former Catholic priest, when being a Catholic priest was a still an unblemished position. He's an atheist now because he finds no credible evidence for the existence of any god. As I've been saying for a year in these threads, lack of CREDIBLE evidence is about as reasonable as it gets. The 'does god exist' question would get kicked out of any court in the land for complete lack of evidence. Edward puts it in perspective here: If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |