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Quote: Pacomartin

You get 30 minutes to take your shower, but you get 5 minutes of water which you can turn on and off.

Why would anyone spend 25 minutes waterless and shivering in a shower?

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There is a bench in the shower in case of turbulence but no seat belts.

Have you ever been caught in turbulence outside your seat? It happened to me once, while making my way back from the lavatory. You could get seriously hurt before you find the bench. I wouldn't risk it. Of course, given the prices involved, it's fair to say I'll never even have the opportunity to risk it :)

I understand Air Force One has a shower, too, but only for the use of the First Couple. I'm sure the president isn't restricted to 5 minutes of hot water.

Quote: Nareed

Why would anyone spend 25 minutes waterless and shivering in a shower?
I understand Air Force One has a shower, too, but only for the use of the First Couple. I'm sure the president isn't restricted to 5 minutes of hot water.

I think that is the time you have in the shower room to s-s-s and to get dressed afterwards. The average shower in America is normally about 7 minutes, but I don't think most people turn off the water between getting wet and soaping and shampooing. So 5 minutes is not a real problem. Plus the floor is heated to as warm as you like, so you are not shivering.

I am sure the shower on Air Force One is a big part of presidential international travel. President Obama went on 10 international trips to 24 countries and 34 cities in his first year in office. President Reagan went to Canada twice and Cancun Mexico one time in his first year.

1 19-Feb-2009  Canada Ottawa
2 31-Mar-2009  United Kingdom London
3 3-Apr-2009 " France Germany" Strasbourg, Baden-Baden, Kehl
4 4-Apr-2009  Czech Republic Prague
5 5-Apr-2009  Turkey Ankara,Istanbul
6 7-Apr-2009  Iraq Baghdad
7 16-Apr-2009  Mexico Mexico City
8 17-Apr-2009  Trinidad and Tobago Port of Spain
9 3-Jun-2009  Saudi Arabia Riyadh
10 4-Jun-2009  Egypt Cairo, Giza
11 4-Jun-2009  Germany Dresden,Buchenwald,Landstuhl
12 5-Jun-2009  France Paris, Caen
13 6-Jul-2009  Russia Moscow
14 8-Jul-2009  Italy L'Aquila,Rome
15 10-Jul-2009   Vatican City Vatican City
16 10-Jul-2009  Ghana Accra
17 9-Aug-2009  Mexico Guadalajara
18 02-Oct-2009  Denmark Copenhagen
19 13-Nov-2009  Japan Tokyo
20 14-Nov-2009  Singapore Singapore
21 15-Nov-2009  China Shanghai,Beijing
22 18-Nov-2009  South Korea Seoul, Osan
23 9-Dec-2009  Norway Oslo
24 17-Dec-2009  Denmark Copenhagen

The Air Force One since 1990 is over 4000 square feet, and I get the impression they used to travel with just as many people in the Boeing 707 that was presented to Kennedy.

A Boeing Business Jet (original size BBJ1) is 79.2' by 11.6' to 10.7' or less than 800 square feet.

Quote: Pacomartin

The average shower in America is normally about 7 minutes, but I don't think most people turn off the water between getting wet and soaping and shampooing.

I don't turn off the water until after I'm done. more below.

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Plus the floor is heated to as warm as you like, so you are not shivering.

The soles of your feet won't be. The minute I turn off the water, I shiver. Except if I can get some steam to build up some warmth. So when I'm done I turn the shower head away, turn off the cold water, wait ten seconds, grab the towel and begin drying off. As soon as I dry my chest, I can turn off the hot water.

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I am sure the shower on Air Force One is a big part of presidential international travel.

The president always walks off the plane looking as though a factory just turned him out. That's entirely due to the bed and shower on AF1.

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The Air Force One since 1990 is over 4000 square feet, and I get the impression they used to travel with just as many people in the Boeing 707 that was presented to Kennedy.

My source for much of what I know about it is Tom Clancy. The plane appears in several of his novels. Apparently the upper deck is all-military and Secret Service, chock-full of comm gear and related avionics (including, one assumes, the missile jammers; I'm sure they have a better airborne radar than commercial planes, too, and a dedicated RIO). The president's bedroom and bathroom, with shower, are in the nose. Aft of this is the president's other accommodations, and aft of that the space for his aides and any VIPs who come along. The very aft part of the plane is for the press, and it's mostly economy-type seats.

I'm sure I could find a rather detailed description with photos somewhere.

You know what I'd love to see? The TCAS logs for AF1.

Quote: Nareed

I'm sure I could find a rather detailed description with photos somewhere.

I don't think anything really comprehensive is released about the layout of the VC-25. Every picture I have seen shows very little. The shots of the presidential cabin are always from the Reagan era.



It probably comes down to as simple as they don't want people to know which window to aim the shoulder launched missile at.

I think the big crunch will come in replacing the eight Boeing C-32s (modified B757-200). As we see from the President of Mexico, upgrading to something with a longer ranges and more room can cost almost as much as the modified B747s used for the POTUS. The C-32 is only about 1200 square feet so a shower and a stateroom for the VP or the Sec of State can easily use 1/4 of the plane.

Quote: Pacomartin

I don't think anything really comprehensive is released about the layout of the VC-25. Every picture I have seen shows very little. The shots of the presidential cabin are always from the Reagan era.

You underestimate the passion and curiosity of determined aviation enthusiasts.

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It probably comes down to as simple as they don't want people to know which window to aim the shoulder launched missile at.

Hm, it's not as simple as all that. First all man-portable SA missiles are heat-seekers. So you'd have to hack it first in order to have it fire without a lock and not to seek a heat source while in flight.

Next, you have to think the Secret Service knows the range of such missiles, and mortars, and canons, and SS missiles as well, and they will secure a very wide perimeter where the president will be. I should think they'll also keep active surveillance the whole time, augmented with Air Force security personnel, or whoever travels with the president, not to mention local forces as well.

Finally, just because the president has a designated, private space inside, doesn't mean that's where he sits all the time.

It's the little things that get you :)

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The C-32 is only about 1200 square feet so a shower and a stateroom for the VP or the Sec of State can easily use 1/4 of the plane.

I don't think the SecState needs to look factory new when arriving anywhere. And I'm sure no one cares what the VP looks like or even who he is ;)

This might be more of an issue for heads of state of smaller countries who can't afford a really big presidential plane.

Quote: Nareed

I don't turn off the water until after I'm done. more below.



The soles of your feet won't be. The minute I turn off the water, I shiver. Except if I can get some steam to build up some warmth. So when I'm done I turn the shower head away, turn off the cold water, wait ten seconds, grab the towel and begin drying off. As soon as I dry my chest, I can turn off the hot water.

If the room itself was heated, I don't think it would be too bad. We have to shower like this when sailing to conserve water. With the balmy tropical weather, it was of no inconvenience whatsoever. Granted, we are in a climate where it's comfortable to dry off naturally after swimming and needn't any towel, so there's that. I've only ever flown in the summer once and recall wishing I could open a window as the plane was too cold and dry. I wouldn't want to shower in that environment.

Then again, at least once a year I go over a week without showering so it's not a big concern of mine. I'm more uncomfortable cold than I am dirty.

Quote: Face

If the room itself was heated, I don't think it would be too bad.

You'd be surprised at what I can't take. I do the steam room treatment even on warm days.

Quote: Nareed

This might be more of an issue for heads of state of smaller countries who can't afford a really big presidential plane.

It is surprising how poor some nations are that have big planes for their head of state. Just B747's (beside the POTUS) are used in Japan, South Korea, and India plus the Arabn nations of Bahrain, Morocco, Oman, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen.

Still my candidate for most inappropriate head of state plane is the A340-500 used by the People's Democratic Republic of Algeria with a nominal per capita GDP of less than $6K (pop 40 million), and a man who has been president for 16 years.

I have heard that Nieto feels it is unseemly for him to have to refuel just to get to Europe.

Quote: Pacomartin

It is surprising how poor some nations are that have big planes for their head of state. Just B747's (beside the POTUS) are used in Japan, South Korea, and India plus the Arabn nations of Bahrain, Morocco, Oman, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen.

I can see how Morocco, Yemen and India might not fit.

I suppose for Mexico it would be cheaper to wait for a 737 MAX. But in the meantime there's the money already spent on the 787, the higher maintenance costs of the current 757, the new money to be spent on the 737 (which will be more than predicted), selling the 787 to some sucker who'll want it, etc.

More or less back on topic, I wonder what the attitude of regular people flying economy is towards business and first class passengers (also to those in the premium economy sections).

On the rare times when I fly Aeromexico, the only domestic airline still offering two class seating, I invariably think "sucker" when I see people in business class (it's what it amounts to, the airline calls it Clase Premier). I've seen what it costs, and it really is not worth it on short flights. The longest domestic flight I've taken on AM is from Hermosillo at nearly 3 hours (I flew with them to and from Orlando back in '06; that's under 4 hours flight time). There are longer domestic flights, though, and many of AM's international flights are long enough to justify the expense. All the long haul flights, of course, to London, Madrid, Paris, Tokyo, Rio, Buenos Aires, etc. But also some mid-haul flights like MEX-JFK (around 5:30 hours, give or take), especially if you draw a B-737.

I don't begrudge them the expense. I just think it's too extravagant on short flights. If I may try an analogy, I'd spend a great deal of money on a good quality, deep pan for cooking, but not much on a measuring cup. Business class on a 90 minute flight strikes me as a measuring cup with a gold handle.

But, well, let me tell you about something that happened recently. I was looking for aviation sites and I stumbled onto Patrick Smith's "Ask The Pilot" blog. I found it interesting, and I still follow it. I "read" his book "Cockpit Confidential" on Audible, too (I do recommend it very much). But there was one post on the front page about annoyances he suffered while flying a premium class (I forget where), starting in the lounge and culminating in flight, mostly about annoying children.

I don't much care for children, and they can be very annoying during travel (one reason I like Vegas is children are rare in most places I go to). But my first thought was "Oh, did a crying baby spoil your pampering, poor little rich man?" I just thought it on reflex. Reading on Smith makes a good case about how much premium seating costs, and that the airlines should guarantee a pleasant experience. A crying baby is as annoying on first as in coach.