Yet another aviation thread.

Quote: Nareed

... frequencies will continue to rule for decades to come. This reduces the need for a very large plane. Ironically, though, small planes are getting larger ;)

The biggest problem is that very large aircraft (VLA) pass some savings on to airlines in the form of fewer pilots, etc. But the bulk of the savings are passed on the airports in the form of lower need for new runways.

But the cost of runways is poorly passed on the airlines except in critical airports like LaGuardia and Washington National which don't handle widebodies anyway. Most fees are based on weight of the aircraft instead of slot management. So airlines have very little incentive to upgauge to the VLA.

Personally, I think there will be a day of reckoning as airports like LAX and LAS and dozens of others around the world are overwhelmed and must begin landing fees by slots instead of weight. Right now there is a fantasy that we can build remote reliever airports like Ivanpah. By the time that the airlines want the VLA, they will be out of production.

Quote: Pacomartin

Personally, I think there will be a day of reckoning as airports like LAX and LAS and dozens of others around the world are overwhelmed and must begin landing fees by slots instead of weight. Right now there is a fantasy that we can build remote reliever airports like Ivanpah. By the time that the airlines want the VLA, they will be out of production.

I wonder. The ULCCs and even the LCCs are taking yet another crack at smaller airports. Norwegian just inaugurated service from New York's Stewart Airport (Google it, it's interesting) to Scotland. That's transatlantic, big-ticket service from a nothing airport in the middle of nowhere important. But the fare is cheap (that arriving passengers might be clueless about how far from NYC they'll be, or that the plane is a 737 is, for now, besides the point).

The problem wouldn't be so much Americans flying out to Europe (and Norwegian plans more routes), as Europeans flying to the US. I suspect only a very tiny portion of Europeans are interested in visiting the great metropoli of Newburgh and New Windsor, NY. So that means connections, and Stewart International Airport offers only a few. But the fare is cheap.

Did I mention the fare is cheap? These days it seems that justifies anything. I figure if people will pay a fee for a carry on bag, or $10 for a sandwich and small soda, they shouldn't balk (too much) at paying bus fare into Manhattan or JFK.

Remember that trips to Europe are a very rare treat for most people, undertaken only a few times in a lifetime (or just once), and so are trips to Asia. Now, there's no effing way to do Los Angeles to Tokyo in a single aisle cattle class plane (not yet). But not five years ago the idea of low-cost transatlantic air tavel was seen as a pipeier dream than the successful all-business-class airline.

La Compagnie is struggling, and even BA has cut down the Banker's Shuttle. Norwegian is racing on 787s and 737s back and forth across the pond, and Jet Blue is very loudly mulling the same thing (albeit to disrupt the high end business traffic).

>But the fare is cheap
Aye. And there will soon be an uptick in local BandB traffic at Stewart. Also when someone wants to start a Stewart to NYC shuttle service he won't have to jump thru hoops to pick people up at Stewart International. You would also be surprized how many people now landing in NYC really want to go to upstate NY anyway.

Main thing: ain't no slot wars at Stewart International. Ain't gonna be.

Think of it. Norway to Stewart on the cheap. Norwegians, indeed all Scandinavians, like to travel that way already. Even if an additional bag is free, they willl probably only show up with one suitcase anyway or just a backpack. That is how they travel.

And all those seasonal berry pickers (3,290 in Norway this year) desperately have to travel on the cheap. Canadian Gap Year adventurers are going to enjoy Stewart International for sure.

Norwegian Air Shuttle is also flying (as of June 17, 2017) to Edinburgh in the UK from Bradley International (BDL on map below) in Connecticut. On September 28, 2016, Aer Lingus to bring daily flights between Bradley and Dublin.

Quote: Nareed

Norwegian just inaugurated service from New York's Stewart Airport (Google it, it's interesting) to Scotland.

Stewart has 1.4 million people living within a 30 mile radius and almost 2.8 million in a 40 mile radius. In comparison, Charlotte Douglas International Airport (CLT), the 8th busiest airport in the USA, has 1.9 million and 3.0 million people living in a 30 and 40 mil radius.

Stewart is 57 air miles from Newark and 88 miles from Albany. Also Albany has no transatlantic flights so you have to first fly to JFK or EWR to get to Europe. It is much easier to drive for 60-90 minutes than to take a short flight.

They've been trying to develop Stewart Airport for many years. Now that a 737 can cross the Atlantic, they have a market.

Quote: Nareed

The problem wouldn't be so much Americans flying out to Europe (and Norwegian plans more routes), as Europeans flying to the US. I suspect only a very tiny portion of Europeans are interested in visiting the great metropoli of Newburgh and New Windsor, NY. So that means connections, and Stewart International Airport offers only a few. But the fare is cheap.

Stewart to five small airports in Europe. It's about 3000 miles to Shannon, Ireland (SNN) and 3500 miles to Bergen, Norway (BG0) . Also included are Dublin (DUB), Belfast (BFS) and Edinburgh (EDI).

It is my guess that 80% of their passenger load will be Americans looking for cheap vacations. Americans love going to Ireland. There are over 33 million Irish Americans compared to 4.76 million citizens of the Republic of Ireland and 1.87 million in Northern Ireland. A big part of the Irish economy is American tourism.

And now you can clear american immigration while in major Irish airports.

I doubt that Europeans flying to Stewart are looking for cheap tickets to Manhattan.

Quote: Pacomartin

I doubt that Europeans flying to Stewart are looking for cheap tickets to Manhattan.

NYC is a popular tourist destination for europeans.

They may also look favorably upon cheap tickets to the NYC area where they can connect with Spirit or Allegiant with cheap tickets to Orlando.

Quote: Nareed

NYC is a popular tourist destination for europeans.
They may also look favorably upon cheap tickets to the NYC area where they can connect with Spirit or Allegiant with cheap tickets to Orlando.

There are flight to Florida from Stewart Airport
JetBlue Airways Orlando, Fort Lauderdale,
Allegiant Air Orlando/Sanford (begins November 16, 2017), Punta Gorda (FL) (begins November 17, 2017), St. Petersburg/Clearwater Seasonal: Myrtle Beach

If you happen to be one of the 400K people who live near Bergen Norway, your only choice for a nonstop to USA is Norwegian to Stewart NY or Providence RI

In that case you would fly to SWF and negotiate the 65 miles to Manhattan.

Norwegian Destination Airports in Northeast USA

But for most Europeans not living near the small cities in Ireland, Scotland or Norway, you would have to transfer to these cities and then the time and cost of getting into Manhattan from Stewart. It would eat up most of the cost savings over flying to EWR. Same for making transfers to Orlando.

I have to believe that most of Norwegian Airliness passengers are going to be Americans going on vacation. Bergen Norway with nearby mountains, Edinburgh and Ireland are very popular vacation spots.



The newer narrow body planes let them serve the three smaller airports in New York, Connecticut, and Rhode Island that couldn't support the traffic on widebodies.

Quote: Pacomartin

If you happen to be one of the 400K people who live near Bergen Norway, your only choice for a nonstop to USA is Norwegian to Stewart NY or Providence RI

In that case you would fly to SWF and negotiate the 65 miles to Manhattan.

But that last would be true also of native New Yorkers when they come home, or other Americans from elsewhere taking advantage of the cheap airfare.

We could also look at other LCC and ULCC activity. How many Europeans travel to the US in WOW and Icelandair, for example?

How long would it take to get from Stewart International to midtown Manhattan? Google maps tells me approx 90min but admittedly I am searching during NYC night time. May be different during the day. The point it is can take just as long to get to JFK so in terms of time there may not be much difference. Cost would be higher due to distance of course. Are there any rail options out that way?

Quote: Aussie

How long would it take to get from Stewart International to midtown Manhattan? Google maps tells me approx 90min but admittedly I am searching during NYC night time.

They started a bus service last week to coincide with the Norwegian flights. It is 90 minutes each way and 6 times per day (55 seats per bus) for $20. The bus goes to Manhattan's Port Authority Bus Terminal near Times Square

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https://web.coachusa.com/info/shortline/ss.stewartairportexpress.asp?nt=1