Not a thread about daylight savings time

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November 1st, 2015 at 6:55:38 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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This thread is not about daylight savings time. It deals with the more basic question of how countries of the world balance two conflicting goals. (1) We would like to have time zones that more or less keep local regions tied to the solar day. That way the sun will rise and set within a fairly unform time period across the nation, (2) It is more efficient to have most of the country on the same time schedule.



This map illustrates to within +/- 2 hours how much parts of the world are running early or late from the solar day. China has made one of the more extreme decisions, electing to keep all of it's 1.3 billion on the same time schedule. As a result the least populated portions of the country are extremely "late".

Argentina is located at a longitude that would naturally put it in the UTC−4 or UTC−5 time zone, but it actually uses the UTC−3 time zone. Argentina determines whether to observe daylight saving time on a year-by-year basis, and individual provinces may opt out of the federal decision. At present, Argentina does not observe daylight saving time. So Argentina has made the decision that is more important economically to be one hour closer to Europe, than to choose a more natural time zone (like Eastern Standard Time in the USA).


Clearly much of Europe has chosen to maintain something other than their natural time zone in order to reap the economic benefits of being on a common time. Noticeably Spain values being on the same time as France. But Spain is reconsidering that position, and may join Portugal and UK in the Western European Time Zone where it is a more natural fit.



Which raises a question which I brought up before. Many people feel that if California and the rest of the West was one hour off of it's natural time zone (by switching to Mountain Time Zone), there would be huge economic benefits by being only one hour from Central Time, or two hours from Eastern time.
November 1st, 2015 at 7:15:20 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
I seem to recall the famed TET offensive was miscoordinated by one hour because the VC units were sometimes on Hanoi time and sometimes the less zealous VC units were on Saigon time.

Never understood China's one time zone policy. Street lights will be turn on a X hour?

Los Angeles can be at any clock time it wants to, someone in NYC, same thing. But more efficient? Why so?

FedEx may go crazy with this.

I've gone the whole day without even realizing the time had changed... now I'm slurping a beer to punish myself for having been so stupid.
November 1st, 2015 at 8:12:58 PM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
Member since: Oct 23, 2012
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I find the topic of time zones interesting. This year I got to "fall back" twice. When I was in Germany I got an extra hour on Oct 25 and then again today. Of course, everything balances. When I flew to Germany I lost nine hours and got only eight back on the return flight.

Anybody remember my Wikipedia fight on what time zone Jackpot Nevada is in/observes?

I've always found the time zone of Newfoundland a geographical oddity. They are half an hour behind the Atlantic Time Zone.

Trivia Time! Janet is in Florida talking to Mark on the phone in Oregon. The conversation goes:

Janet: What time is it for you?
Mark: (replies)
Janet: That's strange, it is the same time here.

How is this possible? Please put answers in spoiler tags.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
November 1st, 2015 at 8:22:05 PM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
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Paco I don't understand the reasoning behind California going onto Mountain time. Places that go to a time zone that is not solar is to line up with a significant trading area. I expect that using that criteria it would make more sense for the Mountain time states to align with Pacific time in California.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
November 1st, 2015 at 8:40:39 PM permalink
Wizard
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Member since: Oct 23, 2012
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Quote: kenarman
Paco I don't understand the reasoning behind California going onto Mountain time.


Me neither. What is the ratio of the population of the US Pacific time zone to the Mountain time zone?

My brother lives in the western part of the upper peninsula of Michigan that is the only part of the state in the Central Time Zone. He says the people there more associate themselves with Wisconsin than Michigan. I wonder how much of this is due to sharing Wisconsin's time zone.

Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
November 1st, 2015 at 9:15:03 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Wizard
I wonder how much of this is due to sharing Wisconsin's time zone.


Ever been to the Upper P of MI? They
talk like Canadians. Aye this and aye that.
We in the Lower don't think of any of
it being in MI, it's too far away. The
bridge is 300 miles from me, might
as well be in another country.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
November 1st, 2015 at 9:28:15 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
Quote: Wizard
Me neither. What is the ratio of the population of the US Pacific time zone to the Mountain time zone?


About 3 to 1. Pacific is roughly 15% of the country and Mountain is about 5%. While it would have a limited financial benefit to change Mountain to Pacific, the population of Mountain time (5% of USA) is so small that it probably isn't worth the trouble.

The primary economic advantage is a result of reducing time differences. Moving Mountain regions to PST would still mean a three hour difference between East and West Coast.

The more extreme version of this change would be to move Pacific regions to Mountain TZ, and to also move Eastern regions to Central Time Zone. Then everyone except for Alaska and Hawaii would be within one hour. Of course Mexico and Canada would have to agree to this change as well.

Think of China which has one time zone. No one has to think about time zones when shipping a package or making a phone call if the main body of people work the same hours (i.e. 9-5). Of course the people in Western China are totally out of synch with the normal sunrise and sunset. China would like to populate Western China, so perhaps they will have more political clout to form a second time zone given a larger population.

Of course, we are not a nation of farmers anymore. Many people work all kinds of hours anyway, and if not they talk business on cell phones or skype. So there is less and less advantage every year of not having time zones.

==============
France's more natural time zone would be the same as Britain. But they probably would never want to be on a different zone than the BENELUX countries, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy. Spain can consider it since Portugal is on UK time. But Spaniards, unlike northern Europeans, tend to do things all night. So it may not matter to them which TZ they are in.
November 1st, 2015 at 11:03:49 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 1068
Posts: 12569
A perfect place to move one time zone is 15° of longitude. In a perfectly uniformly populated world, time zones would be +/- 7.5° from the centerline. The American cities are fairly well lined up with the ideal.

74.006° W : New York City : 5 time zones 75° W
87.685° W : Chicago : 6 time zones 90° W
104.99° W : Denver : 7 time zones 105° W
115.17° W : Las Vegas : 8 time zones 120° W
118.25° W : Los Angeles : 8 time zones 120° W

In Europe, 15° E is between Naples and Zagreb. But Berlin and Rome are fairly close to 15° E. So they use one time zone difference than London.

0.128° W : London : Prime Meridian
14.26° E : Naples Italy: 1 time zones 15° E
15.98° E : Zagreb Coatia : 1 time zones 15° E
13.38° E : Berlin :1 time zones 15° E
12.50° E : Rome :1 time zones 15° E
2.351° E : Paris : should be on London time, but on German Time
3.717° W : Madrid :should be on London time, but on German Time
9.140° W : Lisbon : On London time

But Paris and Madrid are more naturally suited for the Prime Meridian time zone. Their sunrise must be relatively late in the morning. But it is more important economically for them to be on the same time zone as Germany, Switzerland, BeNeLux and Italy. As we said earlier Spain is reconsidering as Madrid is actually West of London.

Las Vegas has sunrise between 05:22 AM and 07:08 AM. Sunsets are between 04:25 PM and 08:01 PM.
Madrid has sunrise between 06:44 AM and 8:38 AM as a consequence of being on a time zone more suited to Berlin. Sunsets are between 5:48 PM and 9:49 PM.


While there are economic consequences of having Las Vegas sunrise between 6:22 and 8:08 AM and sunsets between 5:22 and 9:01 PM the economists believe that they will be offset by only being 2 hours different than NYC and East coast.

Las Vegas may be a bad example since as a city it is relatively immune to sunrises and sunsets, but the same applies to West Coast.

At any rate, it is certainly an abstract discussion since it is very unlikely to change.
November 1st, 2015 at 11:59:09 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
several comments; one of them sensible.

Haven't you heard that Greewitch and the Prime Meridian are a plot and the new Prime Meridian goes thru the Islamic State?

How is it that in 1941, Perl Harbor was a half hour off any sensible time..... when the Hour struck in San Francisco, the half hour struck in Hawaii.

Tree hugging hippies in Santa Cruz don't care about commerce in New York. People in Los Angeles care when the markets are open, when Amazon is open and when the Bicycle Club is open. They also focus on The Big One. They don't much care about NYC except as being proof of life existing East of Sepulveda. Cows in Wisconsin don't care what time they get milked but for some reason Wisconsin farmers and ranchers and cheese agers get up in arms about it.

In New Mexico the only time is Manana, no matter what is happening. All life revolves around beer sales and state-endorsed fraudulent sales of semi precious gems.
November 2nd, 2015 at 2:58:01 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Pacomartin

Think of China which has one time zone. No one has to think about time zones when shipping a package or making a phone call if the main body of people work the same hours (i.e. 9-5). Of course the people in Western China are totally out of synch with the normal sunrise and sunset. China would like to populate Western China, so perhaps they will have more political clout to form a second time zone given a larger population.


This might be some kind of communist/dictator thing as the USSR was the same way.
The President is a fink.
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