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Las Vegas airport
| November 11th, 2015 at 11:32:55 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
It kind of makes sense. From the late 60s to mid 70s, the main trends were supersonic travel and wide bodies. Namely due to the hype and publicity around the Concorde and the 747. Back then no one would have predicted narrow bodies dominating the market by volume, or a trend for smaller planes, even in the wide-body market (A350, B787). Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| November 11th, 2015 at 10:40:07 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
In 1979 BAe officially joined Airbus, the UK having previously withdrawn support for the consortium in April 1969. I don't know when Dassault stopped making narrowbodies. I presume Airbus could not start making narrowbodies until there was no one else in Europe who made them. I do like your comment about "narrow bodies dominating the market". It's often said that every engineer in the early 1970's believed that by 2000 most flight would be supersonic. But it is equally true that they probably believed that companies would naturally gravitate to bigger planes. So planes got smaller and slower. Emirates fleet backbone is the B777-300ER, with 152 orders and 104 deliveries. But it has 140 orders for the Airbus380 with 67 deliveries. However, the final order of 50 A380s is with a different engine than the first 90 (Rolls Royce instead of General Engines).   Emirates still makes a bigger profit on an A380 flight, than the B777-300ER largely because the people who buy expensive seats are so enamored of having an entire upper class deck. I think that Emirates has offered Airbus a carrot of an order of up to 200 neoA380s if Airbus will start the program. I still think the stick is coming, and Emirates will either cancel or transform their final order (made 2 years ago) for 50 current engine option A380s with the RR engines, if Airbus will not begin work on the neoA380. In June 2014 Emirates cancelled a 70-plane A350 order, the first of which was due to be delivered in 2019. At the time people talked about the impact on Boeing, but I think Emirates may be looking for a fall-back position if they don't get the new engines on the A380. They may re-instate this 70 plane A350 order to minimize potential lawsuits if they back out of the 50-plane A380 order. |
| November 12th, 2015 at 7:18:06 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
The past is much easier to predict than the future ;) I do recall a great deal of debate when the A3XX (later to be called A380) was being designed. Boeing wavered on whether to go for a similar product. they wound up with a smaller wide body with composites and increased fuel efficiency (787)
The latest A380 for Emirates packs over 600 passengers. They did this by eliminating first class, reducing business class, eliminating the shower, and placing economy seats on the upper deck (sacrilege!). If later on they opt for 3-5-3 seating in economy... I'd rather not even think about it. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| November 12th, 2015 at 12:46:37 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
Emirates had 399 economy seats on the lower deck originally, then they upped it to 427 and have added one more row to up to 437. The FAA limit on the main deck is 538. With this new configuration of 437 economy seats on first deck, and 120 economy seats on upper deck replacing first class, they actually have more economy seats than any competitor has total seats on their configuration. You are correct they dropped four rows of business seats. Emirates did not have first class to Copenhagen when they flew there on the B777-300ER, so they introduced this new two class configuration for the A380 (their 67th delivery). They may feel that they have exhausted the destinations that support first class pods and showers. Emirates has yet to fly an A380 to Africa or Latin America. Air France now has A380 routes to Johannesburg, and will start to Mexico City next year.  I doubt Emirates will go to a single class configuration even when they start flying to Africa and Latin America in the A380. But when their leases are terminated after 12 years, it is quite possible the planes will be leased to an airline interested in single class configurations. Eva Airlines from Taiwan was interested enough to an artist's impression of an A380 in their livery.  |
| November 12th, 2015 at 1:14:01 PM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
As far as I know, Emirates doesn't even fly to Mexico. But in the flight radar app, I catch an emirates cargo B-777 from time to time (at elast that's what the app says it is); also Qatar cargo a few occasions. I was pleasantly surprised any airline would use any space on a plane for something other than packing in passengers. Oh, I know the shower and spa are 1st class only (not even business class nabobs can join in), and the bar/lounge is only 1st and business class. But I liked the idea that some airlines were doing it, and maybe others would copy them. instead things are moving already in the opposite direction.
Can you imagine how tightly Ryanair or Spirit could pack an A380? Can you say 1,000+ passengers? (the Horror! The Horror!) Not that they'd be interested, now, but who can tell in the future? Usually a bigger for of transportation offers a cheaper cost per passenger (or pound of freight) than a similar but smaller one. If this holds true here, then an A380 operated in single class for mid-haul thick routes would be dirt cheap if it went completely no-frills and packed people in tight (I can imagine additional seating set up in the wasted space by the galleys). Size isn't all there is, though. Long haul aircraft "age" more slowly because they experience fewer pressurization/depressurization cycles. Even though their engines operate longer without a break, they have fewer changes in thrust as well. All this compared to mid and short haul aircraft. An A380 covering, say, DFW-JFK could do it several times per day. More if you had it on a circuit of, say, DFW-JFK-ORD-DFW. I don't think either of these airlines would try something like this, but some operators in China, India or Japan might. If they do, I hope they never, ever have an accident. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| November 12th, 2015 at 2:08:57 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
It's too far from Dubai to Mexico City. They only are putting in their third flight to Latin America next year. The Dubai to Panama City flight on a worldliner will be the longest commercial flight in the world. 14300 km Dubai to Mexico City (particularly difficult since takeoff from MEX must deal with high and dry conditions) 13804 km Sydney to Dallas (current longest commercial flight in world on Qantas ) 13830 km Dubai to Panama City (announced for 2016, using Boeing Worldliner) 13400 km Dubai to Cancun (no market ?) 15345 km Newark to Singapore DISCONTINUED 14114 km Los Angeles to Singapore DISCONTINUED 13963 km New York to Bangkok DISCONTINUED 13695 km Atlanta to Mumbai DISCONTINUED While it is amazing how many flights now go to Cancun from Europe, there is not much interest in Cancun in the Middle East or Asia. It is much cheaper for them to go to vacation in Southeast Asia. Air Berlin Düsseldorf Seasonal: Munich Air Europa Madrid Air France Seasonal: Paris–Charles de Gaulle Arkefly Amsterdam Seasonal Charter: Warsaw–Chopin British Airways London–Gatwick Calima Aviación Seasonal charter: Madrid Condor Frankfurt, Munich EuroAtlantic Airways Seasonal: Lisbon, Porto Eurowings Deutschland Cologne/Bonn Finnair Seasonal: Helsinki LOT Polish Airlines Charter: Warsaw–Chopin Lufthansa Seasonal: Frankfurt (begins 8 December 2015) Novair Charter: Gothenburg–Landvetter Neos Scheduled charter: Milan–Malpensa, Rome–Fiumicino Nordwind Airlines Moscow–Sheremetyevo Orbest Portugal Madrid Charter: Lisbon SATA International Charter: Lisbon Thomas Cook Airlines London–Gatwick, Manchester Seasonal: Glasgow–International, London–Stansted Thomas Cook Airlines Scandinavia Charter: Copenhagen, Oslo–Gardermoen, Stockholm–Arlanda Thomson Airways Birmingham (UK), London–Gatwick, Manchester Seasonal: East Midlands, Edinburgh, Glasgow–International, London–Stansted (begins 3 May 2016), Newcastle upon Tyne, Oslo–Gardenmoen, Stockholm–Arlanda Seasonal charter: Dublin (begins 13 June 2016) TUIfly operated by TUI Airlines Netherlands Seasonal Charter: Hamburg Virgin Atlantic London–Gatwick Wamos Air Charter: Madrid XL Airways France Brussels, Paris–Charles de Gaulle
The FAA has specified no more than 853 seats (538 on the main deck and 315 on the upper). This limit is based on clearing the plane in the event of a crash landing. It is completely involiate. |
| November 12th, 2015 at 3:29:20 PM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
Yes, but given the opening of the oil business lately in Mexico, you'd think business people in the area would grow interested. Getting a major, big airline to suddenly travel here would greatly impress the politicos here..
Yes, but they can refuel on the way and pick up another gratuitous 5th freedom controversy. :)
The FAA has precious little jurisdiction in China. I wouldn't put it past a corrupt clique of officials to authorize, and promote, the World's Biggest Passenger Flight. They'd just better not have an accident. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| November 12th, 2015 at 4:44:47 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 | 
Which airport would piss people off the most for 5th freedom flights to Mexico City? Madrid, Barcelona, Paris, London, Rome, JFK, Orlando, Houston, Toronto, Panama City, San Juan? I don't think there is an existing flight into Mexico City from Barcelona or Rome, so they would presumably cause the least controversy. But would they be profitable enough? I have never heard of a fifth freedom flight with a US airport in the middle. Surprisingly there is not usually that much controversy when US is at the terminus. Singapore Airlines flies to LAX via Tokyo and has 5th freedom flights. Qatar Airways flies to JFK via London Heathrow. I think that the Milan JFK flight is causing controversy because it is Emirates, which may have the airframes soon to take over the world. |
| November 13th, 2015 at 8:42:12 AM permalink | |
| Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
Barcelona.
True. but Spain is one of the top European destinations for Mexican travelers, and lots of Spaniards visit here, too. All through Madrid by Aeromexico and Iberia. I don't know if a 5th Freedom flight Barcelona MEX would be profitable, but it would be seen as intrusive.
In the very late 70s I flew an Air France 747 MEX-IAH. I assume the plane went from there to France, or from there to NYC and then France. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
| November 13th, 2015 at 4:24:20 PM permalink | |
| Pacomartin Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 1068 Posts: 12569 |
There seems to be a lot more nonstop flights from European destinations to Cancun than MEX, but I don't see Barcelona on the list. Nonstops to Mexico City seem to be six airports LHR,CDG, MAD, AMS, Dusseldorf and Frankfurt. Aeromexico used to fly nonstop from MEX to Barcelona but discontinued.
Singapore Airlines is now flying a route from Singapore-Barcelona-Sao Paulo and SIA sells tickets for just the latter half. So there is some precedent for using Barcelona. Any new flight is intrusive. Certainly some people from Barcelona change in Madrid to fly to Mexico City. But Emirates using their 5th freedom to fly from Milan was deemed particularly intrusive since there were already 3 airlines flying Milan to JFK, and a 4th one flying Milan to Newark.
By definition a 5th freedom flight must go back to the host country. There is no freedom to fly from one country to another country where neither is your home country. Of course, this freedom is now obscured by cross investment and alliances. It would seem that there are a handful of 5th freedom flights where the USA airport is in the middle. Korea to South America may use LAX as the middle airport. New Zealand to London also with LAX as middle airport. Until very recently there seems to be some kind of gentleman's agreement that most revenue would come from passengers going through the middle airport. Also that the airline does not compete with itself. Like Emirates has several flights from Dubai nonstop to JFK. It is competing with itself to fly from Dubai to Milan and on to JFK. |