Firearms With Face

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December 13th, 2012 at 1:39:29 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: odiousgambit
As far as issues, the one that has me is the "slippery slope"... I really have become convinced that it is a mistake to give in on any demands to control guns, as the people who push this [I really believe] want to take them away completely and view any concession as a stepping stone to what they really want.


I completely agree, and am even further from center on the subject. Like many government regulations, I fail to see where they make a difference where intended, and every one we push through chips away at our civil liberties.

Quote: odiousgambit
I think if I had the time I might try to sharpen my skills with long distance shooting with a rifle and scope. I can tell you, though, one thing that bugs me is how much the ammo costs. They aren't giving that stuff away! [does that convince you I don't seem to have the right DNA to really be a gun buff?]


Well, like any other hobby, there are ways you can tailor it to your personal financial comfort level. My DPMS LR-308 would suit your long range needs. It'll send a .308 (7.62x51mm NATO) round acurately out to 600 yards, which is more than any man really needs. Some guys are hitting at 3/4 a mile. At $1,200 it's not cheap, but for that $1,200 you have a high quality piece that'll last a lifetime.


Since $1,200 is a healthy chunk of change for most, there's a ton of cheaper options out there if you do a little homework. The county gun show was at my workplace this year, and a guy had case after case of WWII era Mosin-Nagant sniper rifles. These also shoot .308 (7.62x54R), and while the lower tolerances won't send them 600yds, it'll still shoot a 2" group at 100yds+. Depending on whether you wanted to common or rare version, the most you'd pay is $180. As a somewhat of a military nut, I'd much rather have one of these that the hyper modern types available.


You have a big point on the ammo, and I'd consider spending many hundreds more on a gun if it shot cheaper, because it will be worth it after awhile. If you buy by the box of 50 at Walmart, the DPMS shown above runs ~$1 a shot. The Mosin runs about the same, but since the 7.62.54R's are a Russian variant, you can only find them in a catalog. The silver lining is that buying bulk really drops the price. If instead of buying by the box of 50, you buy by the crate of 500, you can save 50%, give or take 10%. Buy by the 1,000, and you save even more. The downside is you're spending $300-$700 at a time on nothing but ammo, and even if it lasts you years, that's a hard pill to swallow.

My Del-Ton has the same modern feel, look, and performance as the DPMS, but cost quite a bit less at ~$800. In addition, it shoots .223 (5.56x45mm NATO) which is less than half the cost per round (about $0.50). It doesn't have the punch that the .308 has, but YouTube has no shortage of guys out west plinking at a ridiculous 800yds+.


If you could care less about power and simply want to be the best plinker in the county, .17 HMR is even cheaper, running ~$0.28 a round. It's the last step before the lowly .22; it's like a .22 on steroids. 200yds is the absolute max, and you'd have to do some serious adjusting to hit at that range, but hey, that's half the fun ;)

So don't fear on DNA issues, we're all feeling it. I'd shoot my .44mag every week if I could, but I'd have to sell my first born or at least remortgage the house I don't have to afford it. It sucks, but at least there are options.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 15th, 2012 at 1:06:14 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 92
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hmmm, this might be the wrong day to continue this thread.. oh well

thanks for the input.

Used guns: just recently learned that rifles wear out in the bore. That explains a lot when it comes to my experience of being puzzled as to why some I could never seem to get accurate with [observed about some guns others bought]. I can remember a 30-30 deer rifle someone had that was absurdly inaccurate.

Any fix for that?
Mustard:You like Kipling, Miss Scarlet? Sure, I'll eat anything [from movie]
December 15th, 2012 at 2:34:43 PM permalink
Face
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First step is to determine whether it’s really “worn”, or if the problem lies elsewhere.

Of all the rifles I’ve seen or owned that had problems, only one was literally worn. Most times accuracy issues come as the result of improper cleaning. Using too much oil, too cheap ammo, or general lack of maintenance can cause all sorts of issues. I’d first give it a good once over. JB compound is something a lot of guys swear by, and I’d really ream the hell out of the barrel with some JB and cloth patches. It’s very hard to get in those little areas where the rifling meets the bore, but you’ve got to clean that area out. Some use a very tight fitting patch, some wrap an old bore brush with said patch. Either way, if your shoulder isn’t burning and/or hurting in the morning, you ain’t working hard enough. Try this as a first, cheap option to rule out a real problem.

Do not go crazy. If you’re connecting a wire brush to an electric drill to really give it the beans, you’re doing it wrong. Use the brush lightly and sparingly, use the cloth patches to scrub.

Wearing out the rifling is kind of rare. XX,000 rounds would have to pass through a well cared for barrel for it to go junk, or a guy would have to really mistreat it with a wire brush to ruin it. But, if the barrel is indeed worn out, your only choice is to get a new one. Fortunately, barrels aren’t hard to come by provided the gun’s not a museum piece or a one-off creation. Skip Walmart/Dicks/sporting good stores and go to a real gun shop. Most should at least be able to contact the manufacturer for a replacement. Many attend gun shows and parts markets and should have no problem whatsoever finding a contact to get you what you want. Personally, I’d get the make/model, the retail price of my piece, and search online. There are tons of sites that do guns and gun parts, like Gunbroker.com. You might incur some S&H cost, and might have to have it sent to a FFL dealer, but you can often find stuff cheaper and easier even considering these “extra costs”.

I recently considered trashing my 20 year old Viper 10/22 as it was shooting 5” groups at 40yds. Just garbage. I told Pops about it and he made me leave it with his retired self overnight. 5 hours of complete disassembly and hard core cleaning of all the components and it’s back to sniper quality. Sub 1” groups at the same distance, same 10 year old, cheap ass Federal ammo. A good cleaning works wonders, always start there first =)
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 15th, 2012 at 5:18:22 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: odiousgambit
hmmm, this might be the wrong day to continue this thread.. oh well


I'm surprised recent events haven't sparked some discussion here. Perhaps it's due to the low membership, or maybe folks here are more apt to resist knee-jerk statements and will wait to process their feelings first, unlike the madness on Facebook. I guess we'll see.

In any case, I will continue. Aces spoke of possibly buying long guns in the future, so that's where we're going.

Whether hunting, target shooting, or use for self defense, a shotgun is top of the line. It's hard to find something a shotgun doesn't do well, and I'd argue there's nothing with the versatility of a good boom stick. Regardless of the high capacity/high powered pistols and hyper modern, fancy AR based rifles I own, come the zombie apocalypse, there'll be but one thing slung over my back: my Remington 870 Express Magnum.



When buying a shotgun, I'd only look at two possible choices; a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500. If you go to shooting forums, nearly everyone is within one of these two camps. Which one to go with comes down to fanboi-ism, or, in real talk, preference in safety position. Each one scores high in quality, reliability and cost. My only unbiased warning is to not buy a Mossberg from Walmart. A gunsmith disassembled one Moss from a gun store and another from Walmart for comparison, and discovered that the Walmart version came with 3 plastic pieces in the action assembly, whereas the Moss from a gun store had only one. I guess "Everyday Low Prices" come at a cost.

For hunting, you've got everything but the largest North American animals covered. Anything from tiny squirrels to hogs and deer can be felled with the same gun; all you have to do is change the ammo. For many of the small game animals, a shotgun is the only choice. About the only downside of a shotty is the range. A slug is much slower than a rifle round and will experience a good deal more drop over the same distance. That's not to say it's "video game" short with a range of 40 feet. My 870 is exactly as shown above, same 24" barrel, same bead sight, and I dropped a deer at 120yds, hitting it dead where I wanted. 150yds+ isn't out of the question, and 150yds is pretty damn far. Certainly far enough to drop a fair number of the zombie herd before they get into biting distance.

For SD in the home, it's hard to argue it down. About the only arguement is size, as many prefer the manueverability a pistol offers. I look at it as the pros and cons of this balance out. A pistol may be easier to wield, but it's harder to shoot accurately. A shotty may be cumbersome, but it naturally allows better control. Depending on your personal abilities as well as the setup of your home, I suppose it's something you'll have to decide for yourself. My personal home defense weapon is still my GLOCK22 due to the layout of my rooms. I do plan on changing it to allow me to bring a shotgun to bear, as I think it's superior when considering my abilities. Concerning stopping power, there is none better. Despite caliber, velocity, or round shape, nothing is going to stop an intruder faster than a fist sized ball of 00 deer pellets to the chest. Confrontations are all about ending the encounter as immediately as possible, and nothing beats a shotgun in this aspect.

For one of these, you're looking at less than $400 brand new, in the box. Your only question should be pump or auto. Personally, I'm a pump man. I find autos too heavy to lug around during a long hunt, and can't find an upside to them. As far as speed goes, of course I could send lead down the pipe faster with an auto (and would be firing straight up in the air by the end of a mag). But when shooting to hit something, I'd bet cash money I could put more points on a target, and do it faster, with a pump than an auto. There's just something natural about a pump, and I haven't touched my Remington 1100 auto in probably 16 years. Of course, YMMV, so don't take my word for it. If you have your preference, go with it. If you don't, then find it. I'm just throwing out words at this point ;)

<$400 man! What are you waiting for?
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 16th, 2012 at 1:53:06 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 92
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Quote: Face
I haven't touched my Remington 1100 auto in probably 16 years.


Yes, I keep going back to my pump too. Old Reliable in my case is a Winchester Model 1300 pump that isnt made anymore.
Mustard:You like Kipling, Miss Scarlet? Sure, I'll eat anything [from movie]
December 16th, 2012 at 10:45:07 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: odiousgambit
Yes, I keep going back to my pump too. Old Reliable in my case is a Winchester Model 1300 pump that isnt made anymore.


Good deal. Keep it forever and pass it down =)

Last night was hockey night, and the post game bar scene found me with my buddies on the force. With the recent events, talk soon went to gun law, carry, and SD. For the better part of 3 hours, I as well as my buddies who represent Local, County, and State, talked the night away. The discussion was interesting to say the least.

These guys are all veterans with 20+ years service. Personalities range from the mellow local guy who carries as part of the job and nowhere else, to the ex-County-now-Federal gun nut whose personal collection would put an entire shop to shame, and has a number of OC bomb booby traps, explosives, etc on his property. None of these guys are traffic wardens. All are specialists trained in all manner of police activities, and are the guys who'd be going in when a SHTF (Shit Hits The Fan) scenario occurs.

Every one of them, without question, believed that any sort of increased "gun control" on civilians was a ridiculous proposal and the worst thing that could ever happen.

These men discussed a number of issues with using police as your own personal protection force. The first is simply the numbers game. The specific county all of these guys work in is 1,500.19 square miles in size. On Grave shift, during the night when most home based issues pop off, there are a grand total of 3 County and 2 State boys patroling the area. At any given time, it's going to take several minutes for any one of them to reach you, and that's if they haven't been otherwise made unavailable due to a domestic, MVAs, or other false alarm / bullshit call. Whether a best case scenario of a prowler outside your home, or a worst case when he's already inside, how many minutes are you prepared to wait? Remember; When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

The second problem is Big Brother. Yes, even The Man has Big Brother problems. The guys were reminiscing about "back in the day", when one of the County boys nicknames was "The Red and White Express, anywhere in the County in 3 minutes or less" (our County boy's colors are red and white). In recent years, the technology boom has hampered these guy's response time. With GPS, every position is known at all times, and this includes the speed they're traveling. In the past, they remembered calls coming out for assistance. One of the State boys needed County help, and County showed up with the car on fire. Brake fluid boiled and pads burned right off the car to the point it was crippled, all to assist with a violent encounter. In the past, the guys hauled the mail to be there as fast as physically possible. Nowadays, such actions are severely limited. Unless it can be determined without a doubt that lives are at stake, the guys merely come quickly. If you call in a possible home invasion, you got at the most 5 available guys coming from a 1,500 square mile area at 85 mph. If the invasion turns life threatening, how are you going to communicate that to make them come faster? You can't. The only thing that's going to save you, is you.

They went on to talk about school based SHTF scenarios, and it did not look good. In the past, these types of situations were handled tactically. Anyone familiar with the military knows what that's about. 4 man teams working in unison to cover each other and clear a building room by room. In the time that takes, many, many lives have already been lost. Since Columbine, this has changed to first man on the scene. They said this situation is nothing more than a suicide mission, yet it's exactly what they must do. The first man must enter the location head on over many yards of green space. No cover, no tactics, no surprise whatsoever. Once there, he must simply head in the direction of the noise. With the way schools are set up, even communication is a lost cause. They went over the local high school, one many of them attended and currently have children enrolled in, and even in this familiar scenario, they said it's hopeless. Trying to evaluate threat, close distance, communicate backup and tactics, are all impossibly difficult. Basically, it's a "throw bodies at the problem" solution, and the very reason they believe on-site armed personnel is the only option to protect these schools. To think that the police can do anything except take into custody / finally neutralize the assailant after he's already done the damage, and then clean up the bodies, is nothing short of a delusion.

Bottom line, and I say this with the utmost respect for my friends and their brothers in arms, and as words directly from their own mouths, you can not rely on the police to keep you safe. Every one of them will do their best, but an absurd majority of the Really Bad Things that happen are commited and over with by the time they arrive. The only person that can guarantee the safety of you and your family is the person reading these words on the screen, because when every second counts, the police are only minutes away.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 16th, 2012 at 11:32:37 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 131
Posts: 6465
How much work has been invested in trying to find a way to modify guns to make them less useful when taken by non-owners.

I've heard complaints that if you're home gun is locked up or has a trigger lock, you may have needed those moments to defend yourself. But say, what about a gun that has two modes. It will fire 3 shots right away if needed, but needs some input (whether device or code ) to continue firing more amunition.

In the current case, and others, it could stymie these less experience (kid) gunmen, but is not a lost cause to instant use either.

I think more could be invested in searching for such tech solutions.
Nobody learned anything from the global financial crisis.
December 17th, 2012 at 1:03:57 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 92
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Quote: Face
Every one of them, without question, believed that any sort of increased "gun control" on civilians was a ridiculous proposal and the worst thing that could ever happen.


Governor Malloy added in a TV interview: “We surmise that it was during the second classroom episode that [Lanza] heard responders coming and apparently at that, decided to take his own life.”

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/mother-of-sandy-hook-gunman-adam-lanza-was-a-gun-obsessive-living-in-fear-of-societys-collapse-16251468.html#ixzz2FIX282en

What does the guy do? He goes to where he can find the most helpless, vulnerable, undefended victims he can think of, and as soon as he merely hears a siren he ends it.

The school could afford a staff psychologist, but not any security?

Silly me, you need somebody on staff to drug the kids.
Mustard:You like Kipling, Miss Scarlet? Sure, I'll eat anything [from movie]
December 17th, 2012 at 11:54:24 AM permalink
AcesAndEights
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 5
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Quote: Face
Now, I'd just ask myself one last question: Am I sure I want a Standard as opposed to a Compact or Sub Compact?

This is a good question. I may end up going with the Glock 19 instead of the 17, but I don't think I want to go below compact for my first gun. I am not going to start carrying any time soon (I want more training and more time on the range to be more comfortable), but at some point in the future I would like to.

Given recent events, going to try to buy sooner rather than later. Gonna be January at the earliest though, given travel plans.
"You think I'm joking." -EvenBob
December 17th, 2012 at 1:34:22 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: rxwine
How much work has been invested in trying to find a way to modify guns to make them less useful when taken by non-owners.
I've heard complaints that if you're home gun is locked up or has a trigger lock, you may have needed those moments to defend yourself. But say, what about a gun that has two modes. It will fire 3 shots right away if needed, but needs some input (whether device or code ) to continue firing more amunition.
In the current case, and others, it could stymie these less experience (kid) gunmen, but is not a lost cause to instant use either.
I think more could be invested in searching for such tech solutions.


Unbelievable. We had this very conversation at work not 8 hours before you posted this. Kinda weird…

First and foremost, gun manufacturing is a business, and the demand for such weapons simply isn’t there. We talked about something similar, where after X number of rounds, something had to be manipulated in order to continue firing. I even think I already know how to do it. But why? Like any other safety feature, it only works as well as the operator wishes it to. Like any other feature on any gun, modifications are simple and a “baddie” could easily disable it. The general public, especially guys serious about SD, would never, ever purchase such a thing. At best, it would be a requested modification that very, very few people would request, and eliminate few if any issues.

A bionic type thing was discussed, similar to fingerprint verification locks. Some little pad deal on the grip would read your print and only unlock with a match. Again, no single person even mildly interested in self defense would ever think of purchasing something like this. It’s just not reliable. Throw in extra cost, extra size/weight, and just one more thing to go wrong, and no one would go for it.

Bottom line, I don’t think anything along these lines are a viable solution. Guns really aren’t that difficult to modify. Hell, they even sell aftermarket stocks, completely legal in even NYS, that’ll make my Del-Ton pictured above perform like a full automatic with no machining or metal work needed. All you need is ~$400. To create something in your garage that does the same thing would only take a little prowess in mechanics. No matter what modifications you do to a gun, what laws you pass and restrictions you put on them, your BoA bandits, your Harris and Klebolds, pretty much anyone with a plan, can erase said modifications, ignore the rules, and wreak havoc.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
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