Firearms With Face

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December 20th, 2012 at 11:37:13 PM permalink
Pacomartin
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The video 5 guns every american should own. Would you agree with this video, or do you have a different opinions.


It starts out reasonably rational with a discussion of combined hunting and self defense. Then it moves into how to arm a 10 man militia cheaply and easily. It's good to know, but not that necessary.
December 21st, 2012 at 7:46:54 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: Pacomartin
The video 5 guns every american should own. Would you agree with this video, or do you have a different opinions.


If a man with epic-beard talks, you listen ;)

The GLOCK - I think it requires at least a few asterisks. First, a 17 or a (gasp) 33 round clip for a GLOCK isn't allowed in every state. My personal feelings are if you need 33 rounds in your GLOCK, something has gone terribly wrong. You don't defend from a seige or get into a firefight with a lowly pistol. Other than that, spot on. If you have a pistol, it should be a GLOCK. Simple, reliable and cheap. I can field dress it down to bits, reasssemble, and fire it in under 20 seconds. I talk a lot about beauty, the "It" factor, with guns. That doesn't apply with a GLOCK. It's ugly. It's simple. I have one because it's a tool, and it's the best tool for the job. A+

Ruger 10/22 - If you know a guy that's had gun since childhood, chances are he started with a Ruger 22. As far as .22s go, it's not even a question. It's king of the hill. Two things about his speech - 1) Supressors, again, aren't something you can just go and get. Here in NY, completely illegal. In places that allow them, I'm pretty sure all require a Federal permit. There's nothing wrong with them, but just saying. 2) As a conservationist, I can't condone the thought of shooting a (LOL) moose (!) with one. This guy seems to be speaking from and End-Of-The-World, survivalist aspect. If so, then I suppose. But for normal use, nothing bigger than a woodchuck.

Mossberg 500 - Already spoke on this one in this thread. Whether the Moss 500 or a Remington 870, there is no other gun I'd ever need. On my personal list, it's number 1. From chipmunk to moose, I have all my hunting needs covered. Black bear, grizzly or human, I have all my SD needs covered. If we're talking sub-150yds, it's the only gun you'll ever need. A+

M-4 - I have one. I love it. But I could do without it. The 5.56mm (.223cal) is like a .22 on steroids. From a normal standpoint, I can't condone big game hunting with one. Even in kill shot scenarios, the wound isn't like one from a .44mag or shotty. Unless you are an experienced tracker, your game will be hard to find and too many deer are being left in the woods to rot. Some guys just head shot with it, and I don't support that either.
From an SD standpoint, many swear by them, typically ex-military and those on the force. They're nice because of the rails; you can put a bunch of equipment on them from sights to tac lights to whatever. Mine has a 0X red dot scope, forward pistol grip and laser sight. Simply grabbing the grip automatically turns on the laser. It's cool. But I'm not ex-military, I'm a country kid. My shotty will do.
Lastly, when thinking survival, it's give and take. It has a boatload more power than your Ruger .22, but it comes at a cost. Rounds are 20x's more expensive and probably 10X's as large. If you're gonna carry 40lbs of ammo, you'll get 10X's as many shots with .22 than a .223.

Mosin-Nagant - Already had these in the thread, too. For a long range, high powered rifle, it's hard to beat. Battle tested and available for $80-$180, it's hard to argue it down. It's a no-no for SD due to the bolt action, and for survival it might be tough to find the 54R variant of the 7.62mm round, but it's a great gun. In fact, I just passed one up due to a tight financial circumstance, but I've since made a comeback and it'll probably be my next gun.

If you're the type of guy that wants a tool for every job, this is the toolkit for you. With these 5 guns, I can't think of any situation in N. America that you wouldn't be able to handle. If I were to make my own "Top 5" list, the only thing that would be different is the GLOCK would be a 23, the Moss would be an 870, and the M4 would be a Del-Ton. In other words, it'd be exactly the same.

Always trust the epic-beard ;)
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 22nd, 2012 at 8:33:28 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Face
Whether hunting, target shooting, or use for self defense, a shotgun is top of the line. It's hard to find something a shotgun doesn't do well, and I'd argue there's nothing with the versatility of a good boom stick. Regardless of the high capacity/high powered pistols and hyper modern, fancy AR based rifles I own, come the zombie apocalypse, there'll be but one thing slung over my back: my Remington 870 Express Magnum.

When buying a shotgun, I'd only look at two possible choices; a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500. If you go to shooting forums, nearly everyone is within one of these two camps. Which one to go with comes down to fanboi-ism, or, in real talk, preference in safety position. Each one scores high in quality, reliability and cost. My only unbiased warning is to not buy a Mossberg from Walmart. A gunsmith disassembled one Moss from a gun store and another from Walmart for comparison, and discovered that the Walmart version came with 3 plastic pieces in the action assembly, whereas the Moss from a gun store had only one. I guess "Everyday Low Prices" come at a cost.

<$400 man! What are you waiting for?

Cabela's in Berk's county, PA offers these four models. Can you be specific about which model you would recommend.

Remington® 870™ Express® Tactical/Home-Defense Shotguns
Available:
870 Express Synthetic Seven-Round – Weatherproof black synthetic stock. 18" fixed-cylinder-choke barrel with a single-bead front sight. Magazine holds six 2-3/4" or 3" shells and one in the chamber for seven-shot capacity. Molded-in sling swivel studs.

870 Express Synthetic 18" – An ideal 12-gauge utility gun featuring an 18" fixed-cylinder-choke barrel, single-bead front sight, nonglare matte finish and a magazine that holds three 3" shells or four 2-3/4" shells. This model is intended for personal use and will not accept law-enforcement accessories.

870 Express Tactical – The No. 1 choice of law enforcement agencies across the country. Quick-pointing 18-1/2" barrels with an extended ported Tactical Rem™ Chokes. Magazines hold seven rounds of 2-3/4" or 3" shells with a factory-installed two-shot extension. Black synthetic stocks and forends with sling swivel studs. Receivers are drilled and tapped. The blasted black-oxide model has an XS® Ghost Ring rear sight and XS blade front sight along with an XS Ghost Ring sight rail for optics and sight systems. The gunmetal-gray powder-coated model has a single-bead front sight.

870 Express Tactical Blackhawk! Spec Ops – The seven-position tactical stock adjusts the length of the shotgun to fit the situation and the shooter. It’s outfitted with a recoil-reduction system and a SuperCell recoil pad for fast follow-up shots. The enhanced pistol grip improves control. Sling mounts can be removed or configured for right- and left-handed shooters. Receiver is drilled and tapped to accept optics. 6+1 capacity using 2-3/4" or 3" shells.
December 22nd, 2012 at 2:25:55 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: Pacomartin
Cabela's in Berk's county, PA offers these four models. Can you be specific about which model you would recommend.


I'm assuming all are the same (either 12ga or 20ga, pump or auto). The ad isn't specific, but regardless of configuration, we'll assume they're identical for a good, apples to apples comparison. Also, be aware I'm not intimately familiar with these models and am only going off what's printed on the ad and what I know about guns in general.

I'd ditch the Synthetic 18" (#2 on the list). While I scoffed at the 33 round clip of the GLOCK, a 3 shell capacity is too short. Remember, mags are spring loaded, and any SD gun is likely to sit loaded for a long time. As such, you don't want to jack it full of rounds to max capacity and let it sit or you could damage the spring. Any gun that is going to sit loaded for a long time (long time meaning many months/years) should be filled to max - 1. Now you're down to 2 rounds. That's no good. Cross this one off the list.

Other than the definite crossing out of the Synthetic 18", the rest is personal preference. All are the same size, nearly the same capacity, and being the same model, they're basically the same gun.

Personally, I'd take the Express Tactical Home-Defense (#1). It's very similar to my Express Magnum I already have. No frills, just a simple boom stick. I also imagine it'd be the cheapest of the three. Due to my familiarity with my home (20+ years), very low maximum shot distance (25' at the most), and proficiency with this type of gun, I don't like or want optics, tac lights, and all the other do-dads some guys put on their weapons. Although my ARs have all those toys, they're mostly for fun. If I'm shooting seriously, all I want are good old fashioned iron sights.

Without rails or a drilled receiver, there's no way to attatch anything. So if you do want that stuff, cross #1 off the list and look at #3 and #4. The Express Tactical (#3) seems to be the most versatile, and you'll rarely go wrong following in the footsteps of law enforcement. With this, you have the most capacity, as well as the ability to add either optics such as a 0X (no zoom) red dot scope, or a tac light, or both. If you like do-dads, this is the gun for you.

The Tactical Blackhawk! Spec Ops (#4) has the adjustable stock and recoil reduction, but slightly less capacity (maybe not enough to make a difference) and, it appears, only accepts optics and not a tac light. If you're a smaller framed guy, not terribly familiar with shooting, or otherwise want more control over your weapon, then this might be the choice for you.

Summary -
#1: Pros - A simple, cheap gun. Nothing to go wrong, nothing to get in your way.
Cons - No way to add attachments.
#2: Pros - A simple, cheap gun. Nothing to go wrong, nothing to get in your way.
Cons - Capacity far too low.
#3: Pros - High capacity, high versatility. Add as many or as few attachments as you'd like.
Cons - Cost?
#4: Pros - Adjustable stock, recoil reduction (A gun that feels good shoots good). Pistol grip can increase control.
Cons - Can't attach tac light. Pistol grip can interfere with operation if not used to it.

Hope that helps, and follow up questions are welcome. =)
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 22nd, 2012 at 3:09:16 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Face
Hope that helps, and follow up questions are welcome. =)


By specifying 3 in the magazine it holds three 3" shells or four 2-3/4" shells plus one in the chamber. So it is also called a "five-shot". Should you use the smaller shells?

So for SD it is a no-brainer that you pay an extra $20 to get the capacity for two extra rounds. But rather than pay the extra money for a better shotgun, you can use the difference to defray the cost of the Glock.

Glock handguns are all the same price, so it is just a personal choice.

  • Synthetic 18" Five-Shot $369.99 Sale Price: $349.99
  • 870 Express Seven-Shot Home-Defense $399.99 Sale Price: $369.99
  • Tactical Blasted $529.99 Sale Price: $499.99
  • Tactical Blackhawk Spec. Ops $589.99 Sale Price: $549.99
  • 870 EX Mag-pul k $799.99 Sale Price: $699.88

    Any Glock is Regular Price: $564.99 Sale Price: $519.99
  • Glock 19 – Chambered in 9mm, it comes with a pair of 15-round magazines.
  • Glock 23 – Chambered in .40 S&W, it comes with a pair of 13-round magazines.
  • Glock 32 – Chambered in .357 Sig, it comes with a pair of 13-round magazines.


    Costs and specifications
December 22nd, 2012 at 4:35:41 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: Pacomartin
By specifying 3 in the magazine it holds three 3" shells or four 2-3/4" shells plus one in the chamber. So it is also called a "five-shot". Should you use the smaller shells?


Hehe, you ever see "Spinal Tap"?

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven...

Some guys just like more. A 3" mag of 00 buckshot typically contains about 15 x .33" pellets, whereas a 2.75" might have 9. Real talk, it makes little difference. At home defense distances, you won't get a spread such that 15 pellets will hit while 9 might miss. Either way, you're getting a softball sized ball of lead on the target. The biggest difference is recoil. As you know, to every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction. The heavier the load to push out the barrel, the heavier the push back on your shoulder. Are you willing to sacrifice controlability for stopping power?

Personally, I hate 3" mag. Regardless of my 6' 210lb frame, I have a hockey body. All ass and legs, nothing up top. 3" mag puts a hurtin' on me, and as I said, a gun that feels good, shoots good. 2.75" is what all LEOs use, and that's good enough for me.

Quote: Pacomartin
So for SD it is a no-brainer that you pay an extra $20 to get the capacity for two extra rounds.


For $20? Hell yes. There's a balancing act when coming to capacity, but not when talking 5 or 7 rounds. If you had a high capacity drum mag or tube mag extender capable of 20+ rounds, you're talking a lot of extra weight as well as volume. In those cases, maneuverability might be affected. When talking about a few inches on a tube mag to take 5 rounds up to 7, it's a no brainer.

I talked a lot about being "minimalist" when hunting, only taking 2 or 3 rounds on my trips. I enjoyed the challenge of making every shot count, and if I missed, hell, I just went home. This isn't the case with SD. If you run your mag dry in a home invasion, you are in some serious shit.

Try this - If you have your own personal range, maybe a back forty or plot of land, try to train yourself in SD reloading. With an empty gun on your shooting table, run a 20 yd sprint away from and then back to your gun. Try to reload with your heart pumping and lungs burning. Do as many finger tip pushups as you can, as fast as you can, and see how easy it is to fill a tube mag with hands shaking from exhaustion. If you're at a proper range where none of this is possible, use one of those squeezy stress ball things. Squeeze it as fast and for as long as possible until your forearms burn and you fingers go numb, then try a reload. All of these physical barriers would pale in comparisson to what you'd be going through in an actual home invasion.

When your life is on the line, leave nothing to chance. In a home invasion scenario, there's nothing in this world you want to hear less than "click".
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 22nd, 2012 at 6:09:44 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Face
Personally, I hate 3" mag. Regardless of my 6' 210lb frame, I have a hockey body. All ass and legs, nothing up top. 3" mag puts a hurtin' on me, and as I said, a gun that feels good, shoots good. 2.75" is what all LEOs use, and that's good enough for me.

Squeeze it as fast and for as long as possible until your forearms burn and you fingers go numb, then try a reload. All of these physical barriers would pale in comparisson to what you'd be going through in an actual home invasion.

When your life is on the line, leave nothing to chance. In a home invasion scenario, there's nothing in this world you want to hear less than "click".


The joke about the dial that goes to 11 is pretty old. I remember Mark Twain using a similar joke in one of his books published in 1889. It is still funny, because sooner or later you will run into the same situation in real life.

OK, it is obvious, you are better off being able to fire the second shot, then you are having a little more stopping power from the first. There was a scene in the movie "Glory" where Matthew Broderick finds the men celebrating because they are doing so well against a target. He has the same guy try to reload his rifle with him shouting and firing a gun next to his ear. It seems that in the civil war each bullet had to be individually reloaded. My buddy told me in SEAL training they never ever shot at a target. Every shot was fired at a simulated person.

I imagine that a very difficult part of a home invasion is right after you shoot someone. Now you have all that adrenalin racing, and you have to determine if there is a second invader in the house who might be armed and is now alerted that you have a gun.

BTW, what do you do if you come into a room, armed and loaded and see two people (both armed) standing 10' apart? Do you try and shoot them both before they shoot you, or do you try and get them to disarm? If it turns out that the pair is not blood brothers, but instead sociopaths who only hooked up for the robbery, the threat to kill one of them might have no impact on the other.


Speaking of sociopaths, this video taken last month in London of teenage girl getting knocked out is one of the more chilling I have ever seen. I have no idea what the poster was thinking when he labelled it "Racism !".
December 22nd, 2012 at 7:02:15 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: Pacomartin
OK, it is obvious, you are better off being able to fire the second shot, then you are having a little more stopping power from the first.


That's my opinion. If you really want to get into it, the discussion can go as far as you would like. Even when you narrow an SD weapon down to a specific gun, in this case a shotgun, you'll still have a number of decisions to make. For example, the 2.75" #00 I suggested has 9 x .330cal pellets inside. If you drop that down to a 2.75" #0, the pellets drop to .320cal. Because of the shape and amount of void caused by the larger .330cal, you can fit a greater load in a shell by going to .320. And I don't mean the obvious "more pellets", but greater overall weight. Also, due to their lower individual weight, they come out faster. It doesn't have to be so precise, but should you care to, you can really customize your gun and load to fit your scenario. If you lived in a large house with long sight line, and therefore the possibility of a longer shot, I'd stay with the heavier load to prevent too much spread, probably #00 or even #000. For close quarters, #0 or even #1 might do (I think #1 is the lowest you can go while still meeting the FBI's penetration criteria)

Quote: Pacomartin
I imagine that a very difficult part of a home invasion is right after you shoot someone. Now you have all that adrenalin racing, and you have to determine if there is a second invader in the house who might be armed and is now alerted that you have a gun.


There's a lot to SD that one needs to learn. As it is, I'm still trying to answer certain questions for myself. This is a big one. Shooting anyone has got to be an earth shattering experience. I was unfortunate enough to see video of a point blank shotgun blast to the chest, and it's not something you ever forget. If you actually had to do it,...damn. But you're exactly right. You must stay focused on what you're doing. Did the blast completely disable your assailant? Is his weapon still within his reach? Are there others inside your house, outside your house, keeping watch? Are the police on their way? Don't come out of SD mode until the police have control of the property.

Quote: Pacomartin
BTW, what do you do if you come into a room, armed and loaded and see two people (both armed) standing 10' apart? Do you try and shoot them both before they shoot you, or do you try and get them to disarm? If it turns out that the pair is not blood brothers, but instead sociopaths who only hooked up for the robbery, the threat to kill one of them might have no impact on the other.


Remember when I said SD was a lifestyle? Well, you've heard of feng shui, right? A way to arrange your furnishings to "promote positive energy"? This is how you practice proper SD. If you were to go to my Fed buddy's house (the gun nut) you'd see that his whole house is purposely set up for SD. Well, you won't "see" it, but if he points it out, you'd understand. There is nowhere for an assailant to hide, should he enter the typical burglar entrances. The only nooks and crannies are on the homeowner's end of the house, down by the bedrooms. Chairs, bookshelves, dressers, all placed just so, so if you're in the room, you can only be out in the open. All windows have something under them, to make entry noisy and difficult. The bedrooms all have something in front of the wall, to at least try to soak a round and prevent it getting to his family. It looks totally normal; it's not like he's got sandbags piled up. But once he points it out, you can see it.

In his house, there is no 10' apart. Ditto for my house. I still have work to do to eliminate hidy holes, but it's coming. Some think it's crazy, but whatever. It's something you can't even notice, can do it once, leave it, then have peace of mind. You might as well. SD is more than boom sticks and shooting at the range.

I would get any thoughts of threatening or disarming an intruder out of your head. Those thoughts make people pause. People who pause get killed. Anyone in your home with a weapon is not there to sell you insurance or ask if you know about Our Lord and Savior. This being your own house, you have the knowledge of territory and element of surprise. Don't forfeit either. I would look up "Castle Doctrine", "Stand Your Ground", and the laws of your State. Being in NY, I'm terrified of having to decide whether or not to shoot someone as NYS doesn't take kindly to such actions. I'm trying to educate, and I suggest you do the same, so if the time comes, there's no thinking. Only reacting. But I gotta say, even with NYS's funky laws, if guys are in my house with firearms, I'm shooting first and asking questions later. As they say, it's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. =/
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 22nd, 2012 at 8:11:51 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Posts: 9162
Quote: Face
Remember when I said SD was a lifestyle? Well, you've heard of feng shui, right? A way to arrange your furnishings to "promote positive energy"? This is how you practice proper SD. If you were to go to my Fed buddy's house (the gun nut) you'd see that his whole house is purposely set up for SD. Well, you won't "see" it, but if he points it out, you'd understand. There is nowhere for an assailant to hide, should he enter the typical burglar entrances. The only nooks and crannies are on the homeowner's end of the house, down by the bedrooms. Chairs, bookshelves, dressers, all placed just so, so if you're in the room, you can only be out in the open. All windows have something under them, to make entry noisy and difficult. The bedrooms all have something in front of the wall, to at least try to soak a round and prevent it getting to his family. It looks totally normal; it's not like he's got sandbags piled up. But once he points it out, you can see it.

In his house, there is no 10' apart. Ditto for my house. I still have work to do to eliminate hidy holes, but it's coming. Some think it's crazy, but whatever. It's something you can't even notice, can do it once, leave it, then have peace of mind. You might as well. SD is more than boom sticks and shooting at the range.

I would get any thoughts of threatening or disarming an intruder out of your head. Those thoughts make people pause.


The idea of a total approach to SD shows extreme maturity.

I could guess that you would think that once an intruder enters your house with deadly force he has forfeited the right to a non-lethal solution. I was just wondering how you would deal with the threat of being outgunned.
December 22nd, 2012 at 9:26:38 PM permalink
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Quote: Pacomartin
The idea of a total approach to SD shows extreme maturity.


Thank you. I suppose a light approach is better than nothing. But if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right. Some of it might sound crazy to an outsider, but really, it just becomes you. Looking at my house you'd notice nothing out of the ordinary, but it's there. For 10 minutes of work rearranging a microwave stand or moving a table...I mean, c'mon. Why wouldn't you? If nothing happens, it means nothing and nothing's lost. If something happens, it could mean the world.

Quote: Pacomartin
I could guess that you would think that once an intruder enters your house with deadly force he has forfeited the right to a non-lethal solution.


That is exactly how I look at it. The only way, in my opinion.

Quote: Pacomartin
I was just wondering how you would deal with the threat of being outgunned.


In dealing with the threat of it, it's simply being prepared. That's why I said a definite no to a 3/4/5 shot mag. Regardless of my proficiency, I have no idea how an incident will go down, how many people there'd be, or how I'd react. Is my laser precision with a shotty still going to exist when facing armed bandits with my son sleeping right behind me? I hope it to be close, which is why I practice shooting after the strenuous output of energy spoken of earlier, but in all honesty, I don't know. I can only train and mentally prepare. Nothing's a guarantee, so be prepared. As many shots as you can have legally without making it overly cumbersome.

If I actually find myself outgunned, I don't really have a choice. From the threshold of my front door (the furthest Eastern portion of my house) to my bedroom (the furthest West) is but 15 easy steps. Even without my son, I don't think I could make it out the window in time, and I sure couldn't do it quietly. I might not have a choice but to fight. My kitchen is basked in the ambient glow of outside (streetlights, driveway lights, the moon). The bedroom area is pitch black; I can see without being seen and don't need a tac light to give away my position. This is all by design. One step to the right from my bedroom, and I can peer around a wall down the entire length of my house, through the living room and kitchen. If they're in the kitchen, they're toast. They can only be in the wide open save for one single spot, ducked behind a very specific part of a half wall. Whether using my .40cal GLOCK 22 I currently use, or the 870 I plan to get into service, either one is an easy shot through that fake wall. In order to enter the house further, they have to run dead at me, and that's easy pickings. If they make it around the corner, it's but a roll or 1.5 step backwards and I'm looking down the hall, again, the full length of my home, into my dining room. The only place to hide is where I keep my son's giant pile of toys, and I keep them there for a reason. No matter where they are, I'll be able to tell exactly. Metalic clinky noises, they're in his pile of matchbox, just to the side of the fireplace. Plastic cracking noises, they're on his train tracks, in the corner of the room. I'm relatively confident I can put a few rounds through the wall and hit them, all in the pitch dark.

Knowledge of territory and element of surprise. I used to think guys were crazy when they talked about this stuff, like off the deep end. Just some guys "playing Army" or whatever old guys do for kicks. But once you get into SD, like I keep saying, it becomes you. The amount of "work" it takes is negligible. It's just "thinking", and once you start, you can't stop. As far as insurance goes, it's pretty cheap.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
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