Firearms With Face

December 30th, 2012 at 4:29:21 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 54
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Quote: Pacomartin
It seems ... simply exploitive.
It is. All is fair in love and war. We live in a society wherein a great deal is already politicized and there is little use for reason or restraint. Abortion, various diseases, gun control, etc. all get the same treatment. He who keeps his head when all about are losing theirs....gets attacked viciously.
December 30th, 2012 at 1:57:41 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: Pacomartin
This may be a sideline, but why did that newspaper print the list of permitted handgun owners? I thought that most of the legal controversy after Newtown was about rifles (particularly those with large ammo clips). It seems as if the list was simply exploitive.


I canít think of a single good thing to come of it. What could possibly be the point?

Many gun owners donít want to be pointed out. It makes you a target, not only for possible harassment, but in a shooting scenario. Thatís why smart carriers never open carry. While the very few people Iím close with all know I have a gun on almost all the time, that doesnít mean I want the whole damn town to know.

And címon. Guns are an expensive and high value theft item. As a single, habitual man, it wouldnít take a week to figure out when Iím out of the house. You could make one trip and take an awkward armful of my $600 TV, or one trip and take an easy duffle bag of $5,000 worth of my guns.

And as a non gun owner, Iíd be just as pissed. I donít know about you, but my town always has a rash of petty theft around Xmas time. At least two of my friends got hit this year until my cousinís neighbor nabbed the jerk going through my goalieís car. Would you want to be identified through exclusion as a ďsoft targetĒ?

Itís total bullshit. Iím all for freedom of the press and donít fault them if they hit a soft spot, but this just seems stupid and pointless. That town has healing to do, why print something with no point that could possibly make a rift and cause strife? I hope someone gets fired over it.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
December 31st, 2012 at 11:32:49 PM permalink
Face
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SD doesn't always mean shooting people. N. America is full of four legged friends that can turn foe without warning (paying attention, Wiz? ;)). My Fed buddy has recently moved to Wyoming, and if the finances work out, I'll be joining him at his home this year for a week long fall trout fest.

He lives in Alpine, a small town of about 800 right on the Wyoming-Idaho border. Here, the famous Snake River dumps into the Palisades Reservoir under the shadow of the Teton Mountains. The terrain is rugged, the population incredibly sparse, and everywhere you look, some sort of National Park or animal refuge exists.

We'll be fishing in the fall. Fall is when many mammals enter their "rut", a time when their hormones skyrocket in preparation for mating. Normally timid animals like whitetail deer can become aggressive, even combative, sometimes attacking random hikers that get too close. Here, a 170lb deer is the least of your worries. Elk and moose are plentiful; my buddy's already shot a cow elk and has been approached by a cow moose, and he's only lived there for 10 months. At an average of 700lbs and sporting massive cranial weaponry, an bad encounter with one of these just might be your last. Fortunately, these are not predatory animals. Any aggressive encounter will likely be a territorial encounter. I'd get out of there if I could, or make myself look as big as possible using branches and scrub if I couldn't.




Cougars also exist all over America, and I'm not talking about the ones that make the young guys nervous. While attacks on humans are rare, they've been on an upswing, probably due to more and more people hitting the woods. Of all the four legged baddies, these probably scare me the most. You don't see them, you don't hear them, and they're fast as the dickens. Big cats don't fight over territory, and any youngins will be in dens far off the beaten path and unlikely to be walked upon. If one gets aggressive with you, it's because it is going to eat you. Never, ever turn your back on one. Cats hate confrontation, and turning your back will get you two fangs through the back of your neck. Get big and get loud. If that doesn't work, fight. You're going to get severely injured, but it doesn't take much to get a cat to quit.



Wolves have also been reintroduced, and have gained enough numbers to have a severely limited hunting season. These things bring down elk, moose, and even bison, and almost always travel in numbers. I'd be lying if I said they don't make me nervous. These aren't just big dogs, they're big packs of giant friggin' killing machines. A lone wolf is an outcast, unlikely to approach you. A pack is a feeding machine. Fortunately, wolf attacks are quite rare indeed, but if I ever see one live, it damn well better be through a scope, on a high powered rifle, from many hundred yards away =p



Brown bear (hey Wiz!) are also all over. These things are the apex predator of almost anywhere they live. Browns routinely chase off entire wolf packs from their kills. They kill and eat Siberian Tigers in Russia. In the far north where Brown and Polar habitats overlap, Browns dominate. They are the ultimate land predator wherever they are. Browns are not like Blacks; if you can see a Brown, and you're on foot, you are in a dire situation. And they'll be fishing the same, desolate stretch of river for the same spawning salmonids that I will be come fall. Lucky me! =D



I'll be bringing my newest fishing buddy with me, and that presents a problem. Pairing a 120lb girl with a .454 Casull will likely create more problems than it solves. Remember, control is everything. But giving her a .22mag might only be useful for her to signal where to collect a body. The solution? A GLOCK, of course. Model 20, chambered in 10mm.



The 10mm is a beast. It has more energy than a .40 and quite a bit more than the .45. It'll give the penetration and performance needed in a big game encounter, with the same ease of function and high capacity delivered by GLOCK. Some prefer a .45 as they say a 10mm's kick is too snappy and harsh, but I honestly can't tell the difference between my .40 and 10mm, other than a slightly wider grip. When talking a charging Brown, I'd of course prefer something bigger (.500 Taurus comes to mind =p) but for someone her size, the 10mm is perfect. It's the easiest big gun I own.



I will be carrying my baby, my precious, my pride and joy...my Ruger Super Blackhawk .44mag. You can "Dirty Harry" me all you want, I've never even seen the movie. I love this gun because it's everything I ever wanted a gun to be. It's freakin' huge; holding it feels like you're actually holding something. The weight, I feel, gives me supreme control and balance (as long as I don't have to hold it on target for too long ;)) Oddly, it was the first handgun I ever shot regularly, it was the one on which I learned to shoot. As it's a brick of a revolver, I can put the hottest, baddest, most brain splatteringest load in that sucker and let it fly. Moose, elk, Brown Bear, charging Rhino, or rabid Chewbacca, it's going down in a heap of my brand new rug. Sure it kicks like a tasered mule, but I can shoot it one handed no problem. Sure it's a single action, but I'm not that slow with it. I'm even getting good at fanning the hammer from the hip, putting 4 or 5 out of 6 rounds on a human sized target at 40ft. Not great, but at $1.20 a shot, not something I can practice a lot =p. And ok, it weighs a metric ton, but hell, sore legs and an aching back sure beats a chewed on neck. Bottom line, I need a big gun. I have a big gun. And I'm damn good with it. Negatives aside, there's not another gun I own that I'd rather have in the middle of the Wyoming wilderness than my good ol' .44. Just look at 'er. Ain't she purdy? =D

Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
January 1st, 2013 at 2:54:49 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 89
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What's with ribbing the Wizard about bears? Did I miss something?

regarding 4-legged danger, my 2 cents:

deer: I am willing to bet the only ones that have killed or injured anyone in a normal situation have lost their fear of humans. OK, close to 100% if not 100%. The wild ones that would pose the most danger are the same ones that most skillfully avoid humans totally.

elk: no experience with them but I bet it is the same pretty much.

moose: in this case, you can get yourself in trouble pretty innocently it would seem. Only during the rut [if wild] I would think.

mountain lions: have attacked joggers and little kids mostly; perhaps some exceptions but personally I would not sweat those too much unless I was a jogger. Some hikers get stalked though; be armed.

bears: biggest problem is catching them by surprise with cubs. But clearly it is good to generally take precautions when bears are about.

wolves: be thankful they are hunted now, this will keep them fearful of hunters and ranchers and thus you too. Even where this does not go on, seems that the reports of people killed are in situations where they lost fear of humans. This has included some biologists who got stupid. For a while I was reading up on this.

Quote:
my newest fishing buddy


Aha! Keep us posted!
Mustard:You like Kipling, Miss Scarlet? Sure, I'll eat anything [from movie]
January 1st, 2013 at 2:19:52 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 54
Posts: 5888
Quote: Face
Fall is when many mammals enter their "rut", a time when their hormones skyrocket in preparation for mating. Normally timid animals like whitetail deer can become aggressive, even combative, sometimes attacking random hikers that get too close.

One female jogger decided to ignore the rutting that was going on, unfortunately any approach from the rear is usually interpreted as another male. Its instinct. Female jogger with headphones doesn't look like another deer but instinct over rides the obvious. Some deer will break into houses because they see another male, the animal's instinct is to attack the other male, not consider reflected images.

It probably takes courage for a cyclist to get off a bicycle and walk the bike but a slow walk would, I think, be safer than continuing at speed which is interpreted as flight. If you flee, it sparks an attack simply because its the weaker animal that flees.

> Ain't she purdy?
Purdy is a term reserved for shotguns and also your new fishing partner.
January 1st, 2013 at 5:54:14 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: odiousgambit
What's with ribbing the Wizard about bears? Did I miss something?


No, you were a part of it. I was thinking back to Wizís Mount Whitney post last year where I got on him about not carrying. That thread has stuck with me, so I figured Iíd poke a reminder to him =)

As far as your thoughts on wildlife, I mostly agree. In the wild, and I mean wild wild, your chances arenít very high that youíd find yourself in trouble. But it can still happen, and other factors add to that probability. Natural influences can raise the chances of a bad encounter, such as the rut and the pre-winter calorie splurge, both of which I will be present for. Then thereís that damned conditioning. Iím not at all familiar with Wyoming, but I know my Fed buddy lives near the edge of Yellowstone, and that itís also a destination for many hunters, campers, fishermen, snowmobilers and ATV enthusiast. I have no idea how many of these animals have seen humans without incident, how many wrappers theyíve found left behind deliciously splattered in grease, or how many PB&Js have been thrown to them.

Outdoors or in society, you donít carry because you think something might happen ďtodayĒ. If we had such premonition we could just stay home that day. You carry because anything could happen at any time. And while animals, like people, generally donít want you dead, if that thought so happens to pop in their head, then you are dead. We are weak, slow, soft animals, no match for any of the ones I listed in hand to teeth combat.

I guess I don't get it. We spend tens of thousands of dollars to insure an Xbox from power surges, vehicles from deer dents, pills for the sniffles, casts to set a bone, maintenance to keep our pearly whites pearly white, but when it comes to carrying the one thing that is the only thing thatíll save your life in a bad situation, we donít because itís ďuncomfortableĒ.

If I ever see the GI tract of a predator, itíll be because Iím field dressing it to pack it out, not as a guided tour courtesy of its canines ;)

Quote: odiousgambit
Aha! Keep us posted!


Same girl from "Fishing With Face". Yeah, she shoots too. Licensed for concealed carry and loves the .44 =D I'm sure you'll see more of her eventually, mostly in "Fishing With Face". Got to teach her fly fishing before the Wyoming trip!

Quote: Fleastiff

> Ain't she purdy?
Purdy is a term reserved for shotguns and also your new fishing partner.


Thanks, Flea =) But if'n that .44 ain't purdy, at least admit it sho' is a fahn shootin' iron ;)
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:48:25 AM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 89
Posts: 2205
Quote: Face
No, you were a part of it. I was thinking back to Wizís Mount Whitney post last year where I got on him about not carrying. That thread has stuck with me, so I figured Iíd poke a reminder to him =)


I remember that now, and your bear attack story.

you might be taking me wrong on the danger posed by various animals. I certainly am not one to head into the woods unarmed; just being able to protect myself from rabid animals is enough [but only ever shot one I thought was rabid]. I would feel funny being in the woods during the rut unarmed for sure. And where I usually go bear are still quite rare & there are no big cats, no moose, no elk, no wolves. There now are coyotes, not much of a danger but, ya know, don't like the idea of being unarmed with those about either. I just wanted to give a scale of danger, and what causes the danger; a moose during the rut worries me the most, personally, outside of grizzlies, if in locales that have them.
Mustard:You like Kipling, Miss Scarlet? Sure, I'll eat anything [from movie]
January 6th, 2013 at 11:54:08 PM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 54
Posts: 5888
I'll try to find the article and post a link but I want to post the substance of the shooting incident:
Ooops.... It was Loganville, GA.
Link Here

Wife at home with young children working from her home office hears repetitive door bell ringing followed by signs of brute force attack on door. Wife telephones hubby who tells her to take the kids and the .38 pistol and hide in the office closet. Hubby dispatches police to his home. Eventually burglar opens closet door, wife fires six times at point blank range striking suspect five of those times, each in the face. Suspect still able to talk but is on ground. Wife and children flea to neighbors. Police arrive to find burglar lying in nearby driveway after attempt to flee bleeding but definitely going to survive.

Any comments from Face, particularly as to why .38 was insufficient at such short range? Article did not state but it sure seems this was her first time with a gun. Five head shots and he didn't stay down, much less out.

Now we know your new fishing partner would have fired only once and hit him right between the eyes blowing the whole top of his head off with her miniature canon, but is this sort of result with a .38 common?

EDIT: It seems a print article was more informative and more accurate: SlaterĖ who was taken to the hospital with punctured lungs, a punctured liver, and a punctured stomachĖ has reportedly been arrested six times since 2008. So it seems we were not even dealing with face shots as reported by the TV station.
January 7th, 2013 at 5:52:53 PM permalink
Ayecarumba
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 85
Posts: 1514
Quote: Fleastiff
I'll try to find the article and post a link but I want to post the substance of the shooting incident:
Ooops.... It was Loganville, GA.
Link Here

Wife at home with young children working from her home office hears repetitive door bell ringing followed by signs of brute force attack on door. Wife telephones hubby who tells her to take the kids and the .38 pistol and hide in the office closet. Hubby dispatches police to his home. Eventually burglar opens closet door, wife fires six times at point blank range striking suspect five of those times, each in the face. Suspect still able to talk but is on ground. Wife and children flea to neighbors. Police arrive to find burglar lying in nearby driveway after attempt to flee bleeding but definitely going to survive.

Any comments from Face, particularly as to why .38 was insufficient at such short range? Article did not state but it sure seems this was her first time with a gun. Five head shots and he didn't stay down, much less out.

Now we know your new fishing partner would have fired only once and hit him right between the eyes blowing the whole top of his head off with her miniature canon, but is this sort of result with a .38 common?


I don't think it is common to be hit five times in the "face and shoulders", and continue to advance, but I don't think there is enough information about the wounds to determine if any were "through and through", or "grazing". What is apparent, is that none of them were immediately fatal, and that the gun was effective in keeping the mother and her children from harm.

However, one bullet to the forehead, or heart, even with a .22 would have dropped him dead, so I think it has to do with where he was hit, more than what he was hit with.
January 7th, 2013 at 10:12:37 PM permalink
Face
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Quote: Fleastiff
Any comments from Face, particularly as to why .38 was insufficient at such short range? Article did not state but it sure seems this was her first time with a gun. Five head shots and he didn't stay down, much less out.


Aye beat me to it, and your edit seems to have put things nicely in place. But since I'm all tuned up for a reply, you're getting one anyway ;)

Shot placement is exactly where I was going before your info came to light. Even assuming the perp was hit 5 times in the face, the face is not a vital organ. You could effectively remove an entire face with lead; as long as you control the bleeding, the victim will live. As it turns out, he was hit in the lung, liver, and stomach (the organ or general area, I'm not sure). The lung is a kill shot. Without immediate medical attention, which I assume he received since the husband has already got the cops moving, there's a good chance he could have died. The liver's not much better. Blood loss is the chief cause of death in shootings and the bullet's primary purpose; livers bleed like crazy. The gut shot is more like salt in an open wound. Unless left to go septic, it's not often fatal.

I'm glad this got brought up, as it touches what Paco and I talked about before pertaining to the time "after the shots are fired". As far as an "instant stop" shot goes, a CNS is the only thing guaranteed to do it. Brain, brain stem, or upper spine. Boom, lights out. Unfortunately, that's never a shot you take and something you should never expect. The spine is too small a target, the head too mobile. The "center mass kill shot" shot is dead in the chest, and what you go for. Draw a circle from your Xiphoid process (where your ribs split from your sternum), to your nipples, to your jugular notch (that weird lump of bone at the base of your throat where your collar bones meet). That is where you aim. Lungs, aorta, heart, you're sure to hit one of these. A little high, you have the jugular and carotid. A little low, the liver and diaphram. A sane man will stop immediately because he's been shot. A crazy man will stop soon due to massive blood loss. In either case, instant neutralization isn't common as seen in your example, so never let down your guard.

As far as the round goes, there is nothing at all wrong with the .38. It's been used by LEOs for decades, and probably still used today. Since it was designed back when blackpowder was the propellant and has never really been updated for smokeless powder, it's effeciency hasn't been maxed. That's why the smaller cased 9mm can produce 38,000 PSI of pressure, while the much larger cased .38 lags behind with 27,000 PSI. But both bullets are the same size, and both more than meet the FBI's penetration criteria. The only reason to choose one over the other is based on personal preference and usage. A .38 is smaller framed gun, easy to tuck into a waistband or purse. It's also a revolver and comes with revolver reliability; when you pull the trigger, you know without a doubt it's going boom. The 9mm's an auto. You don't get that small size, nor the reliability, but you can cram 19 shots into your piece. Which would you rather have?

Completely up to you. But the one thing that doesn't come into play when choosing is stopping power. Unless you feel the need to be able to shoot through both car doors, several interior walls, or an individual with light armor, there's no reason to choose one over the other based on performance. Both are equally deadly and are good SD rounds.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.