Neo-monophysitism

December 13th, 2015 at 5:23:23 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64

I have read it several times, and I don't think it could be any more clear - "he shall rule over you" is a consequence for her actions, as is "in pain you shall bring forth children"

I have never seen someone suggest that these punishments can ever be reversed - because they describe how the nature of man and woman came to be.


Be careful we have to remember where we are in the story, post original sin so this punishment is not describing how the nature of man and woman came to be, that is described earlier when they lived in peace and harmony and God say all the He created and said it was "very good".

Quote:
There is nothing about how repentance for original sin can reduce the pain of childbirth, make it so man doesn't have to work the earth for food, or be regranted access to the garden of eden. With that, there is nothing to suggest that "he shall rule over you" is reversable either.

If it is reversable, doesn't it show that man has the ability to pick and choose which of god's words to believe or obey, or show that god is fallable by his inability to enforce his words?


This is reversible because it involves what we can control. We can't control the earth and make plants grow but we can control how we treat one another. In some ways this shows the divine majesty of God and the permanent consequences of sin and at the same time His mercy to allow ourselves to soften the blow of sin by returning to His plan through the use of our will. We are all called to cooperate with God in the return of goodness and love to the world, He does not want us to resign ourselves to the fact that one must rule over the other but rather than we can both serve each other and find happiness and peace and glimpse of what our relationship was like in the garden again. Jesus drives this point home all the time.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 13th, 2015 at 5:25:59 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
From Genesis chapter 9

This was another thing I had trouble understanding, and I don't think your answer about sexual deviants applied here.

Why was Canaan made a slave for Ham seeing his drunk naked passed out father and telling his brothers who then covered him up without looking?
How did Noah know that Ham had done something to him, and what had he done?

What is the lesson here?


To understand this further we have to better grasp the idiom, "say his father's nakedness". If you look at Leviticus 18:7-8 and again Lev. 20:11 you will discover that this refers to incest and is about Ham sleeping with his mother, Noah's wife. So the lesson is don't commit incest or you will be cursed.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 13th, 2015 at 5:30:24 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
There is no one spouse rule in genesis - there are examples of people with one spouse, and an example of someone with two. No rule.
As far as I can tell, there is no rule until Paul in the NT tells certain people in leadership positions in the church that they can have only one wife.

My assertion continues to be that marriage in christianity has not always been between just one man and one woman. That is what I was hearing over and over during the gay marriage debates, and it is obviously not true.



I'll try to take a look at the website you referenced, but we already have talked about the clear expectation of the Bible from the very beginning that a man shall cling to his wife and the two of them will become one flesh. After the fall there is polygamy but Jesus immediately returns us to Genesis by always referencing the reason why there are men and women namely that they should leave their fathers and mothers and cling to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. You are correct that St. Paul develops this marriage theology further but I don't see any other way to read it than the original plan was for one man and one woman to come together in the close intimate bond of marriage so that they were one body and could create new life. Jesus immediately returns us to this concept in His preaching.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 13th, 2015 at 5:48:53 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
If you make someone feel good about themselves .


But that's not what you do. All you peddle
is guilt and a phony cure to get over the
guilt. Your message of everybody being
born into filthy sin, that we're all 'broken',
is meant for people to feel bad, not good.
Your cure keeps them always coming back
for more, because you're never really cured
at all. Priests are pushers, they peddle sin
and a cure to the sin. This is why native
cultures had so much trouble understanding
all the lies, they saw none of this in the real
world.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 13th, 2015 at 5:49:41 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
To understand this further we have to better grasp the idiom, "say his father's nakedness". If you look at Leviticus 18:7-8 and again Lev. 20:11 you will discover that this refers to incest and is about Ham sleeping with his mother, Noah's wife. So the lesson is don't commit incest or you will be cursed.


That sounded so ridiculous I had to go looking for it.

http://www.ukapologetics.net/canaan.html

That site agrees, there is more than what is written to that story. They have a few different theories as to what was left unwritten. Nothing there about Noah's wife, though

When was Leviticus written? From what I have learned, the book of genesis was assembled about 500-600 bce from various sources.

It is amazing to me that you can fill in the blanks of exactly what happened from a complete lack of a description of the events and any others unwritten who may have been involved.

It brings up slavery again, though, and how Canaan was put into slavery for the transgressions of his father. Maybe transgressions of his father - how can you be sure, it was unwritten. The other site suggests Canaan himself was directly involved.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
December 13th, 2015 at 6:05:14 PM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Quote: FrGamble
I'll try to take a look at the website you referenced, but we already have talked about the clear expectation of the Bible from the very beginning that a man shall cling to his wife and the two of them will become one flesh. After the fall there is polygamy but Jesus immediately returns us to Genesis by always referencing the reason why there are men and women namely that they should leave their fathers and mothers and cling to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. You are correct that St. Paul develops this marriage theology further but I don't see any other way to read it than the original plan was for one man and one woman to come together in the close intimate bond of marriage so that they were one body and could create new life. Jesus immediately returns us to this concept in His preaching.


So, anything that happened after the fall that you don't like reading must be reversed.

What about the stuff you do like?

Shouldn't we then be striving to return to our state of ignorance over the matters of good and evil, and whatever other knowledge that was gained by eating from the tree?

There was no condemnation from god on the practice of polygamy, no commandment from moses. Jesus even councelled someone on the practice of passing a widowed wife from brother to brother, which apparently was ok even if the brother was already married.

Jesus talking about adam and eve is again not a prohibition nor is there a condemnation of the practice of poligamy.

You mentioned about how Paul's instructions were the start of the return to the practice of only one man and only one woman. That acknowledges right there that in the early christian church that the marriage of one man to more than one woman was possible, allowed, and not condemned.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
December 13th, 2015 at 9:28:56 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64

That site agrees, there is more than what is written to that story. They have a few different theories as to what was left unwritten. Nothing there about Noah's wife, though

When was Leviticus written? From what I have learned, the book of genesis was assembled about 500-600 bce from various sources.


This is a hard question when you are dealing with an individual book of the Pentateuch. For thousands of years it was thought that Moses wrote the entire five books. Leviticus I'm sure was not written all at one time but was a compilation of the developing laws and rituals of the time.

Quote:
It is amazing to me that you can fill in the blanks of exactly what happened from a complete lack of a description of the events and any others unwritten who may have been involved.


You are starting I think to recognize the inherent difficulty in the written Word of God. You can't expect any work to give you a complete description of every event in all its detail. The same inspiration that put these words together is the inspiration that guided the ancient Rabbis to interpret these stories. You are going to have to recognize that these men and many still today dedicate their life to prayer and study of these text many memorizing every jot and yiddle and constantly praying for the guidance of God in reading and understanding the text. We are indebted to them and it would be foolish to you by yourself trying to interpret these incomplete texts without their help and history.

Quote:
It brings up slavery again, though, and how Canaan was put into slavery for the transgressions of his father. Maybe transgressions of his father - how can you be sure, it was unwritten. The other site suggests Canaan himself was directly involved.


Noah was a righteous man who was the first victim of discovering the intoxicating power of alcohol. As I think you have discovered "seeing your father's nakedness" refers clearly to sleeping with his mother, Noah's wife. Slavery is considered in this case a punishment.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 13th, 2015 at 9:41:26 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
So, anything that happened after the fall that you don't like reading must be reversed.

What about the stuff you do like?

Shouldn't we then be striving to return to our state of ignorance over the matters of good and evil, and whatever other knowledge that was gained by eating from the tree?


Whoa horsey, who said anything about being ignorant of what was good and evil before the fall?!? Adam and Eve knew very well what was good and evil because God, that author of what was truly good and evil instructed them. Obedience to God is the surest way to truly know what is good or evil. After Original Sin we become ignorant of what is good or evil because we try to figure it out on our own subject to our own whims and feelings leading to fighting, violence, and ruling over others. Contrary to what Evenbob thinks their are unselfish people. Selfishness is the source of the problems of the world and thinking what is good or evil is really what I think is good or evil for me. That is an awful way to live.

Quote:
There was no condemnation from god on the practice of polygamy, no commandment from moses. Jesus even councelled someone on the practice of passing a widowed wife from brother to brother, which apparently was ok even if the brother was already married.


Okay first of all it is clear that God's plan is one man and one woman from Genesis to Jesus. No commandment about this, but clear teaching for sure. The example you mention about Jesus was a question first put to him by the Sadducees. They put a ridiculous question to Jesus to make fun of the idea of an afterlife. He uses their example to say that in Heaven people are not married or given to marriage. Jesus does not in this case counsel anyone, in fact he kind of ignores their crazy parable.

Quote:
Jesus talking about adam and eve is again not a prohibition nor is there a condemnation of the practice of poligamy.


While it is not technically a prohibition of polygamy it is a clear teaching on the nature of marriage between one man and one woman. There is nothing Jesus or anyone in the NT says about polygamy, probably because the practice was already dismissed by Christians as it was for much of the culture at that time.

Quote:
You mentioned about how Paul's instructions were the start of the return to the practice of only one man and only one woman. That acknowledges right there that in the early christian church that the marriage of one man to more than one woman was possible, allowed, and not condemned.


I didn't mean to suggest that Paul's instructions were a return to the practice of one man and one woman. If polygamy was an problem for the early Christians it is clear that fiery Paul would have addressed and condemned it. The fact that he didn't is because it wasn't a issue at the time.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 13th, 2015 at 9:49:44 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Your message of everybody being
born into filthy sin, that we're all 'broken',
is meant for people to feel bad, not good.


Have I ever said this? Is this what you still think Original Sin is about even after all we have discussed? Are you listening?

Original Sin is not filthy sin, it is not even a personal sin. As I have said many times Original Sin is more about our goodness and that our true nature is good and holy. Again every culture and person knows that we are 'broken' and that you do the things we wish we wouldn't do and don't do the things that we wish we would. We all have felt that it is frustrating difficult to do what is right and surprisingly easy to do the things that are wrong. We all feel bad at times because of what we do or don't do, no one is immune to this truth. The Gospel is about not letting this convince us that we are just bad and that is who we are. The Gospel frees us from feeling bad about ourselves and helps us remember the echoes of our goodness that call us to fight against evil and injustice and that deep down we are awesome.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 13th, 2015 at 10:52:46 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble

Original Sin is not filthy sin,.


"Original sin is a moral and spiritual corruption. It could be compared to the Reformed Doctrine of Total Depravity which states that sin has touched all parts of what a person is: heart, mind, soul, will, thoughts, desires."

It sounds awfully filthy to me. You'd
be screwed if you believed such claptrap.

Invent the disease, then invent the cure.
People will believe anything if you sell
it right.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.