New boeing 737 Max 8 rolled out in ceremony

I've been reading aviation blog archives for weeks now. Last night I came upon a flight review on a trip from San Diego to Hawaii on a 737. This was in 2012, but the principle of the single-aisle narrow body is the same. This trip lasted 5:40 hours. That's a long, long time to be cooped up without space to move around.

Consider flights for such small planes will be getting longer in the near future. For now it's only LCCs and ULCCs which fly small planes on transatlantic routes, with the "legacy" carriers thus far use them only as large executive jets for business and first class passengers. But it's not that unlikely for one of the big carriers to decide to use them on such routes, as to provide more flexibility in schedules. Say instead of a wide body leaving for LHR from JFK at 10 am, you could have four flights in narrow bodies at 8, 9, 10 and 11.

This would require expanding airports, perhaps on both sides, and increasing the demand.

We'll see.

Quote: Nareed

For now it's only LCCs and ULCCs which fly small planes on transatlantic routes, with the "legacy" carriers thus far use them only as large executive jets for business and first class passengers.

United and Icelandair are the two primary deployers of the B757 on transAtlantic Routes. IcelandAir obviously because their Transatlantic flights are usually shorter. United considers them ideal for flights at times that are less busy or between cities with lower demand, such as Oslo to Newark.

On January 11, 2012 the Wall Street Journal reported that in the previous month, United's 757s had to stop 43 times to refuel out of nearly 1,100 flights headed to the U.S. westbound. Presumably that usually means stopping in Gander Newfoundland. The reason was an unusually strong jet stream blowing across the North Atlantic. A year earlier, there were only 12 unscheduled stops on about the same number of flights, the paper reported.

The use as large executive jets is fairly limited. But eventually the B757s will have to be retired. This variability in jetstreams naturally plays havoc with potential designs.

“The Airbus A321LR and a 737 Max 9 if you put a couple of [fuel] tanks in on paper look to have the same range as a 757, but in practice, if you put them to airline rules, both of them come up about 500 miles short,” Boeing vice president of marketing Randy Tinseth said.

Tinseth noted that the launch of any new midsize airplane would likely have to wait as long as a decade, after Boeing starts delivering the 777X.

Islip is an airport very close to JFK that is used almost exclusively by Southwest Airlines for domestic flights. There are a million people who live within a 22.5 km radius of ISP.

57.9 km Long Island Macarthur Arpt, Islip, NY (ISP) to John F Kennedy Intl, New York City, NY (JFK)

Could such an airport support a narrowbody flight to one of the lesser used airports in Greater London, Britain?

5520 km Long Island Macarthur Arpt, Islip, NY (ISP) to Stansted, London, GB (STN)

The A321neo has a maximum range of 6,760 km which may be enough to cover extreme weather variations, but more likely the long range version will be needed.

The A321neo weight variant with increased MTOW of 97 tons – often called A321LR or sometimes A321neoLR (LR = long-range) – transports 206 passengers in a 2-class layout with increased range to 7,400 km by using three additional 2,990 L fuel tanks.


Such planes will have limited use in Mexico, since Canada and Lima Peru is already within range of narrowbodies, but Santiago, Rio, and Sao Paulo as well as Europe are still outside of the range.

3250 km Juarez Intl, Mexico City, MX (MEX) to Lester B Pearson Intl, Toronto, ON (YYZ)
4250 km Juarez Intl, Mexico City, MX (MEX) to Nlima Intl Jorge Chavez, Lima, PE (LIM)

Quote: Pacomartin

United and Icelandair are the two primary deployers of the B757 on transAtlantic Routes.

I think I flew on a 757 only once, and it must have been in the early 90s with Delta. I don't recall much about it, but it seemed more spacious than other narrow bodies of the time, or of this time. It may all be simply that back then they didn't cram every possible row of seats in.

Quote:

“The Airbus A321LR and a 737 Max 9 if you put a couple of [fuel] tanks in on paper look to have the same range as a 757, but in practice, if you put them to airline rules, both of them come up about 500 miles short,” Boeing vice president of marketing Randy Tinseth said.

Yes. But as recently as 20 years ago, you wouldn't have seen an A318 fly transatlantic routes, even on a relatively short NYC-London route, even all decked out in all-business class. You see such things now.

The point is as efficiency climbs and some refinements are made, we may see smaller narrow bodies adapted to longer and longer routes. I know if Boeing wanted to do a really long range narrow body, say one which could cover a route from MEX to LHR, they'd do so. Perhaps they will do that next.

Quote: Nareed

I think I flew on a 757 only once, and it must have been in the early 90s with Delta. I don't recall much about it, but it seemed more spacious than other narrow bodies of the time, or of this time. It may all be simply that back then they didn't cram every possible row of seats in.

The 757 is Boeing's largest single-aisle passenger aircraft. Orders for the B767 and B757 were taken as early as 1978, and a little over a thousand of each model was produced. The 757 was sold primarily to USA airlines and was the primary choice of the transcontinental routes until the B737 next generation.

I think it is a big question if Boeing is going to go through all the trouble to develop a plane which will simply cannibalize it's Dreamliner sales. They just feel like they have to respond to the A321LR by setting up some standards reviews.

The new B737 may take over some of the routes to Ireland , UK and France but not much beyond that.

Aer Lingus still has their fleet of widebodies which will be flying for a while.
4 Airbus A330-200 14.1 Years
4 Airbus A330-300 7.1 Years

Quote: Pacomartin

The 757 was sold primarily to USA airlines and was the primary choice of the transcontinental routes until the B737 next generation.

trivia: briefly a charter airline called "Aladia" operated from Mexico with 757s (perhaps 2). They flew to Vegas, at least, and I saw their counter space at the old T2 at McCarran in 08 or 09. I also saw an ad of theirs one, I forget where, boasting "We have a bigger plane." I didn't notice when it ceased operations.

Quote:

I think it is a big question if Boeing is going to go through all the trouble to develop a plane which will simply cannibalize it's Dreamliner sales. They just feel like they have to respond to the A321LR by setting up some standards reviews.

I suppose they'll keep modifying the 737 MAX until they have to develop a new plane, or until Airbus does a new narrow body.

The success of the 787, and the good press it gets about the onboard environment, will make either of the majors develop the same concept in other liens, both bigger planes and smaller ones. It's only a matter of time.

It's just that given the costs, as well as the safety issues, involved, new airplane types take a decade or so, give or take, from draft board to first flight. Plus another year or two for entry into service.

Quote: Nareed

It's just that given the costs, as well as the safety issues, involved, new airplane types take a decade or so, give or take, from draft board to first flight. Plus another year or two for entry into service.

Boeing makes over half it's profits on the B777. The B737 remains profitable, but they are going to push deliveries to well over 600 per year. But they are struggling to make a profit on the 787 Dreamliner.

model: orders = delivered + undelivered
787: 1,143= 370 + 773 (135 deliveries in 2015)
777: 1,743 = 1,219 + 524 (98 deliveries in 2015)
737: 10,165 =5,748 + 4,417 (495 deliveries in 2015)

I just don't see Boeing make a real 757 replacement. The potential market is much smaller than the B787, it will undercut the sales of Dreamliners, and a modified long range B737 will make many people happy.

According to the wikipedia, the cabin width of the 757 is 11' 6"

The maximum cabin width of the 737 classic is 11' 7"

So, if the 757 seemed more spacious, it probably wasn't because it was wider.

Quote: Nareed

trivia: briefly a charter airline called "Aladia" operated from Mexico with 757s (perhaps 2). They flew to Vegas, at least, and I saw their counter space at the old T2 at McCarran in 08 or 09. I also saw an ad of theirs one, I forget where, boasting "We have a bigger plane." I didn't notice when it ceased operations.

They ceased operations in October 2008. The planes are certainly longer than a 737.

Five B757's operated on Aladia's fleet ordered by first flight
05. Nov 1986
21. Sep 1987
05. Aug 1991
05. Apr 1993
09. Jun 2000

B757's started flying in 1982.

Quote: Dalex64

According to the wikipedia, the cabin width of the 757 is 11' 6"

The maximum cabin width of the 737 classic is 11' 7"

So, if the 757 seemed more spacious, it probably wasn't because it was wider.

Perhaps there was more room between rows (pitch).

My memory is hazy. I think this was all in 1990 on a route that went MEX-Atlanta-Orlando on Delta. I do recall also flying the L-1011 on that trip, which was a wide body, so maybe I'm conflating the two.

If I can trust my recollection, though, the Delta 757 had lavs at the middle of the plane. That might have made it seem more spacious for someone seated in the area.

Quote: Nareed

If I can trust my recollection, though, the Delta 757 had lavs at the middle of the plane. That might have made it seem more spacious for someone seated in the area.

Delta has 11 different configurations for the B757, but many of them do have both sets of lavatories in the middle of the plane

I suppose the 757 with 8 more seats may seem a lot more spacious just because of the arrangements of the bathrooms

Boeing 757-200 (75S) 168 seats total
16 flat bed seats 76" pitch
108 standard seats 31-33" pitch (18 rows)
44 standard seats COMFORT 35" pitch (7 rows + 2 seats by exit)

Boeing 737-800 (73H) 160 seats total
16 recliner seats 38" pitch
126 standard seats 31-32" pitch (21 rows)
18 standard seats COMFORT 34" pitch (3 rows)

Delta introduced their Delta Comfort+ branded product on their long-haul international fleet in the first half of 2011, so it wouldn't have existed when you flew.