Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

If you remove free will and God than you remove the possibility of moral judgments upon the man's actions.

Because nowhere in the world are child abusers ever brought to trial and imprisoned.

No gods required.

Quote: FrGamble

Then by Christ's sacrifice He pays the price for all sin past, present, and future so that the just punishment for our sins is fulfilled and we are freed from the guilt of our sins and God sets us free.

If Jesus allegedly lived a sinless life, what sins was he being punished for?

I ask this, because the only person who should receive retribution for a crime is the criminal in question, not anyone else. If you were to rob me at gunpoint, I would not consider it just to have your family imprisoned as a consequence.

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The blood of the lamb freed the ancient Hebrews from slavery and death.

The blood of the lamb was meant to mark the places where the allegedly all-knowing deity should refrain from committing infanticide.

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You might look at this as the atonement that is God giving His life for us all.

You obviously don't believe that. A life given up is gone forever. You seem to believe the dead Jesus is still alive, therefore he didn't not give up his life. And Jehovah, as far as I can tell, was quietly out of the picture throughout the whole saga, like Luke Skywalker. Certainly he wasn't killed at any time in the whole book of myths.

Quote: FrGamble

rxwine your question is a valid one. I wonder if you would suggest that God would remove the free will of the abuser in order to stop the torture of a child? Would you then go so far as to willingly volunteer to give up your free will and that of everyone in the worlds in order to create a perfect world?

Would you like me to set up a false dichotomy to defeat your argument? Would you? Really?

Let's be serious. We have an all-powerful being on one side, and a cruel shmuck on the other. In this battle, incredibly, the schmuck is victorious.

Now, if I were all-powerful, what would I do? Well, I could bind the schmuck. That leaves him free to think and choose whatever he wants. I could whisk the child away, again not affecting the criminal's free will even one tiny iota. I could strike the criminal dead. I could give the child the strength and abilities of Superman. I could create Rey on the spot and have her come to the rescue.

The Jehovah character is too powerful to be credible.


What we get instead is this old saw:

"Is Jehovah willing but not able to prevent evil? Then he's impotent

Is Jehovah able but not willing to prevent evil? Then he's evil.

Is Jehovah neither willing nor able to prevent evil? Then why call him "God"?"

Quote: Nareed

It's a small thing, I admit it, but a deity acting in so petty a fashion while spouting new-agey, feel-good, generalities is very much to be feared.

We have to understand that fear was a major
motivator 2000 years ago. It's why the Romans
publicly crucified people. It's why Yahweh is
such a cruel god. People respect fear. It's why
the Church was so strict and kept getting stricter.
Ignorant peasants respect fear and you can control
them with it. It's why the modern hell was invented
in the NT. Christianity is a fearsome death worshiping
religion, that's why it's lasted so long.

Quote: Nareed

Is your life not valuable to you?

I'm just telling you that God doesn't charge money or make deals for salvation. I don't understand the context of your question but the answer is my life is valuable to me.

Quote: pew

I'm just telling you that God doesn't charge money or make deals for salvation. .

You mean not anymore. One of the primary
reasons for the rise of Protestantism was the
Catholic Church's zeal in the selling of
indulgences. They were in effect selling salvation
for money and Martin Luther had had enough of
it.

Quote: pew

I'm just telling you that God doesn't charge money or make deals for salvation.

The things that cannot be bought with money are those that are most valuable.

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I don't understand the context of your question but the answer is my life is valuable to me.

You pretty much have to dedicate your life to "God" in order to be "saved" (from "God"). How else do you interpret the passage about "loving "God" with all your heart, and all your strength, etc."?

Taking the notion of "God" seriously, why would an all-powerful deity create billions upon billions of people for the sole purpose of worshipping him? Worse, what kind of person does upholds this with the threat of eternal punishment?

Quote: Nareed

If Jesus allegedly lived a sinless life, what sins was he being punished for?

I ask this, because the only person who should receive retribution for a crime is the criminal in question, not anyone else. If you were to rob me at gunpoint, I would not consider it just to have your family imprisoned as a consequence.

We have two things at play here. Divine eternal justice and human justice. You are correct that it is unjust to lock up a stranger for the crime of another. We have to humanly answer for our crimes in the courts and in our justice system. In regards to Divine Justice you are guilty as well but God's mercy and love for you seen in the sacrifice of Jesus frees you from the punishment of death. God is not transferring atonement, He is aggrieved and He Himself dies for you. It is as if you robbed God at gunpoint but He choses instead to set you free and serve your sentence and pay Himself for your crime. This is His right. I admit it seems extraordinary, who would do such a thing? Only one deeply and madly in love with you. Notice as well that the requirements of justice are still met. God isn't saying there is no consequences to your sin only that He takes the consequences upon Himself as the lawgiver and judge and victim Himself.

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The blood of the lamb was meant to mark the places where the allegedly all-knowing deity should refrain from committing infanticide.

The blood marks the places of the innocent. And I agree with your point that I am sure not all the Hebrews were completely innocent, but the blood marks them so. The Egyptians too if they believed after all these plagues and warnings to do what God asked of them could have been marked with the blood of the lamb as well. It is really the absence of blood that marks the places of those guilty of committing infanticide and slavery.

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You obviously don't believe that. A life given up is gone forever. You seem to believe the dead Jesus is still alive, therefore he didn't not give up his life. And Jehovah, as far as I can tell, was quietly out of the picture throughout the whole saga, like Luke Skywalker. Certainly he wasn't killed at any time in the whole book of myths.

Jesus is Jehovah, God incarnate who truly dies and after three days is risen.

Quote: Nareed

What we get instead is this old saw:

"Is Jehovah willing but not able to prevent evil? Then he's impotent

Is Jehovah able but not willing to prevent evil? Then he's evil.

Is Jehovah neither willing nor able to prevent evil? Then why call him "God"?"

Are these really the only answers? Of course not. This is the strongest emotional argument against God and therefore needs to be treated with great care and compassion, but it carries no intellectual merit.

Could another answer to all three of your questions be that God has a morally sufficient reason to permit evil so that a greater good can be accomplished?

If you answer in the negative than you will have to prove that there is no possible way the existence of free will and the permitting of evil cannot be justified in any conceivable way.

Quote: FrGamble

He is aggrieved and He Himself dies for you... I admit it seems extraordinary

But but, he did NOT really die, god
didn't kill himself to save us, the
whole thing is dizzyingly preposterous.
It doesn't seem extraordinary in the
least. It's exactly like Bill Gates giving
$100 million to charity and claiming
it was a great sacrifice, when he still
has 60 billion left. We'd look at him
like he's nuts, he sacrificed nothing.

In the Jesus myth, god has all the cards,
he sacrificed nothing. You disagree
with this, so you tell me what god gave
up, what did he sacrifice. It wasn't Jesus,
him and Jesus are the same entity, he
knew the outcome. The only thing
that makes sense is that the myth is
about a symbolic sacrifice, not a real
one. Like with Gates, his sacrifice is
symbolic, he could have kept the money
for himself.

And if the Jesus myth is symbolic, which
it obviously is, it's just a nice story and
nothing else. Put it in the book of myths
with all the others.