Simple question?

Quote: Dalex64

You guys might as well argue over the same definition.

1849 it is failure in genuine love for God
1850 Sin is an offense against God

You cannot, no matter how hard you try, get
away from the fact that sin, real sin, is going
against divine law. It's the only real definition.
For an atheist sin is a meaningless concept.

Dalex I know you were trying to be helpful but I've been trying to open up Evenbob's mind to more of a general concept of sin, rather than the religious definition which he rejects out of hand because he denies there is a God. He thinks that the idea of sin is just made up by religious people specifically Christians to keep everyone in line. We were close to a breakthrough when he brought up the concept of law and breaking the law, which is a secular sin. Now I'm afraid he has gone right back to clinging to a definition that we all know he can never agree with because it mentions an offense against God and this is the very reason he wants to write off the whole notion of sin as false. Thank you though, it never hurts to quote the Catechism.

Quote: Evenbob

But in an adult, responsible way. There
is no forgiveness from some fake god
when we break a real law, we damn well
get punished. No slinking into a
confessional and spilling your guts to
a man you actually call 'father', to get
you off the hook. That's a childs world,
where you never have to grow up. You're
kept in a world of perpetual adolescence
by a Church who will do anything to keep
it's hooks into you.

Really? Admitting you have done wrong is childish while lawyer_ing up to avoid as many repercussions as you can is the adult thing to do? I think you might imagine that confession means you are off the hook. Far from it. It means that God loves you and forgives you but you still have to pay for the broken window. Confessing is good for the soul and gives you the strength to own up to what you have done knowing that it does not define you or control you. Confession is the first real step for change and conversion. I'm actually kind of amazed you think this is childish. One of the hardest most adult things we ever have to do is admit when we are wrong. Oh right, I forgot you have never had the experience of admitting when you were wrong. My bad, please forgive me.

Quote: Evenbob

1849 it is failure in genuine love for God
1850 Sin is an offense against God

You cannot, no matter how hard you try, get
away from the fact that sin, real sin, is going
against divine law. It's the only real definition.
For an atheist sin is a meaningless concept.

Sin is NOT a meaningless concept for anyone. Please just deal with the first 10 words or so of the definition and tell me if you think that everyone understands when an offense against right reason or their conscience happens?

Quote: FrGamble

Really? Admitting you have done wrong is childish

Yes, when you do it in a private booth
to somebody you are made to call
'father'. Can you think of anything more
childish that an adult is required to do.

The prayer Jesus says you should use
starts 'Our father, who art in heaven..'
Is it any coincidence that the Church
requires all priests to be addressed as
father? It's puts the parishioner is an
immediate subservient position, as
it's meant to. In the days this was
dreamed up, the father was the
ultimate authority figure in every
household. Making a priest yet another
father figure was a stroke of genius.

'Confessing is good for the soul' says
the person taking the confessions.
Doing things you don't need to confess
to a stranger is even better for the soul.
Taking responsibility for your actions
instead of weaseling your problems off
on some authority figure is how adults
handle the real world. Even Paul said
that now that he's grown, he put away
childish things. Like the need of an
adult to have a father figure in his
life from cradle to grave.

Owning up to something you did wrong is a good adult thing to do anytime and to anyone you trust.

You seem kind of bent out of shape about the whole "Bless me father..." thing. Just to point out that it was St. Paul himself who called himself the father of many Churches and Jesus talks about Father Abraham, our father in faith. This is not to compare one to God, but rather to acknowledge the fatherly role that Paul or other leaders of Churches or pastors have in the community. They are called to protect, provide, and love the parish family, much like a father would do. It doesn't mean to be subordinate, quite the opposite. Think of how a father and a child relationship is. It is the father who does everything to help the son or daughter not the other way around. The Father loves and serves the children. Wouldn't you agree with this?

I think we are in agreement with taking responsibility for your actions. My disagreement with you is that you think this can happen secretly without having to really tell anyone, especially an authority figure. Excuse me for saying this, but that seems childish. It is as if you think if you admit it to yourself that is all you need do? Surely, that seems like a cop out to you doesn't it? Wouldn't it be better to do the hard thing and own your sin and admit it to someone else, especially an authority figure. That is again the beginning of healing, conversion, and restitution. You can't do any of this if you just whisper your confession to yourself.

Quote: FrGamble

St. Paul himself who called himself the father of many Churches and Jesus talks about Father Abraham, our father in faith. .

Oh, the Church has a 'father complex' for sure.
The obsessive need to make itself the male
parental influence in all it's parishioners
lives from cradle to grave. I'm sure you
never ask yourself why that is because
you're right in the middle of it. Priests
stick their noses into peoples lives
where they have no business being,
all because of some phony baloney authority
given them by a church. People who
take responsibility for their lives and
actions need no such crutch to pat
them constantly on the head and tell them
they're doing fine. We leave our parents
home and run our own lives as we see fit.

I do ask myself why and I know it is because I care for and love my parish family. I don't think I stick my noses in anyone's business but because I care I want to know how parishioners are doing and if there is a way I can help them. Kind of like a father, but in a spiritual sense. Again the priesthood is not about authority but about service. You have it twisted. Think of Jesus who said, "I have not come to be served, but to serve.". He also washed the feet of His disciples and asked them to do the same.

Please explain how it is a crutch to take responsibility for your actions and to be held accountable in loving compassion? Isn't that what we should do? Would you rather not have people take responsibility for their mistakes and just admit to themselves they had done wrong? That seems like what every child wishes they could always do, never have to admit to anyone else, even those who love them, that they have done anything wrong. It is an easy way to allow yourself to keep doing what you know is wrong, which might be why you seem to be so for it?

Calvin Coolidge settled this sin stuff long ago. After the President had attended church the reporters asked him the topic of the sermon and he replied "Sin". Asked to elaborate a bit on what the minister had said, Calvin Coolidge replied "He was against it".

Seems sufficient enough for me.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't think I stick my noses in anyone's business but because I care I want to know how parishioners are doing and if there is a way I can help them.

That pretty much describes sticking your
nose in their business.

Quote: FrGamble

Kind of like a father, but in a spiritual sense. Again the priesthood is not about authority but about service. You have it twisted. Think of Jesus who said, "I have not come to be served, but to serve.".

Kind of like a father? In pretty much every
way. It's interesting that you elevate yourself
to the position Jesus held, not really surprising.

Quote: FrGamble

Please explain how it is a crutch to take responsibility for your actions

It's not a crutch, what you do is a crutch.
It allows people to think they can get
away with more because they have a
priest they can spill their guts to and
receive a get out of jail free card.

The ultimate example of this is the
Italian Catholic mafia. They thought
the confession setup gave them
permission to be as bad as they wanted,
as long as they confessed their sins
and gave a lot of money to the Church.

Your Church teaches the opposite of
taking responsibility for your actions,
it gives you an easy way out. In real
life, not the fantasy life you perpetuate,
there is no way out, you're stuck with what
you did. So be very careful not to do
anything you'll regret later.