Simple question?

Quote: Evenbob

Kind of like a father? In pretty much every
way. It's interesting that you elevate yourself
to the position Jesus held,

You can see in your wording that you still don't get it. Elevate to the level of servant or slave of all? This is what my life is all about service and sacrifice for others. It is the opposite of any authority worldly or otherwise. Kind of like the humble father who only wants his children to succeed, be healthy, and do good. It is not about me.

Quote:

It's not a crutch, what you do is a crutch.
It allows people to think they can get
away with more because they have a
priest they can spill their guts to and
receive a get out of jail free card.

It is not a get out of jail free card, it is a get out of hell free card. You might and very well should perhaps go to jail for what you have done. That is justice, but divine love and mercy is what keeps you out of eternal hell.

In regards to the mafia you really don't know much about what you so freely speak about do you? The Church has always been at war with the mafia and fights against it often. You can't be committed to a life of evil and just after you whacked someone go to confession and think it is okay until you do it again. In what world are you living, can you really be that poisoned against the Church that this is what you think we teach?!? As Jesus clearly points out you cannot serve two masters. To live a life of a gangster I think you pretty much have to be sold out to the irrational idea that morality is subjective and there really is now right or wrong and that my circumstances allow me to do something that might be bad for others, but it is good for me. The only one tooting that line, if I remember right is you.

Quote: FrGamble

It is not a get out of jail free card, it is a get out of hell free card.

Same thing, it's a crutch, it's gives
people permission to do bad things.
I have no such luxury, I have to live
a conscientious life, I have to act like
an adult who's on his own and not a
child who still has his daddy to save
him from trouble.

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To live a life of a gangster I think you pretty much have to be sold out to the irrational idea that morality is subjective and there really is now right or wrong and that my circumstances allow me to do something that might be bad for others, but it is good for me..

Doesn't matter what rationale they use, the
fact is they THINK they can go to confession,
and give gifts to the Church, and get forgiven
for whatever they've done. You think the Church
is in the habit of turning down those large cash
gifts from the mafia? They most certainly are
not. They are willing enablers, no matter how
much they are ethically against it. Just like they
were ethically against the child molesting priests,
yet enabled them by having no real punishment
when they were caught. The Church is two faced,
they often say one thing and often do another.

Quote: Evenbob

Same thing, it's a crutch, it's gives
people permission to do bad things.
I have no such luxury, I have to live
a conscientious life, I have to act like
an adult who's on his own and not a
child who still has his daddy to save
him from trouble.

Please explain how forgiveness is equal to giving permission to do bad things. Also please explain how forgiveness means you don't have to live a conscientious life.

Quote:

Doesn't matter what rationale they use, the
fact is they THINK they can go to confession,
and give gifts to the Church, and get forgiven
for whatever they've done.

The rationale does matter because that will show you that you are wrong. It is like you thinking there is no God, if you examined the rationale you would realize you are wrong. Do you really think someone in the mafia thinks that by giving some gift to a charity their bad deeds go away? They might want to think that but if they examined their rationale they themselves would realize how stupid it is to think such a thing. It might make them feel better and it might be what they want to believe, but rational thought is not part of it.

Quote: FrGamble

Please explain how forgiveness is equal to giving permission

Seriously? If I knew my dad was going to
forgive everything I did when I was 12,
I would have been out of control. It's
the not knowing that keeps us in check.

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Do you really think someone in the mafia thinks that by giving some gift to a charity their bad deeds go away?

Of course! It's been drilled into their heads
since they were 3 years old. Do you really
think all those rich people buying
indulgences in the 15th century thought
they were buying nothing? They, and
the mafia, believe it wholeheartedly. It
makes perfect rational sense in the way
the Church is set up.

Quote: Evenbob

Seriously? If I knew my dad was going to
forgive everything I did when I was 12,
I would have been out of control. It's
the not knowing that keeps us in check.

Wait do you think forgiveness means you are not punished?

Quote:

Of course! It's been drilled into their heads
since they were 3 years old. Do you really
think all those rich people buying
indulgences in the 15th century thought
they were buying nothing? They, and
the mafia, believe it wholeheartedly. It
makes perfect rational sense in the way
the Church is set up.

And this is why there was needed reform. It is not like outside this point in history that indulgences were sold. It was an abuse that was during a small sliver of time in the Church's history. I am sure no mafia members with Tommy Guns ever were taught at any moment that they could buy forgiveness. It is again what they would like to have believed, but they knew it wasn't true as much as you do.

Quote: FrGamble

Wait do you think forgiveness means you are not punished?

My dad never forgave and forgot. You
were punished and NOT forgiven, you
were reminded of what you did even
years later. It's not the punishment that
was bad, it was how you were diminished
in his eyes. This is what keeps you from
doing bad things. My dad was NOT an
enabler, like so many parents are now.

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I am sure no mafia members with Tommy Guns ever were taught at any moment that they could buy forgiveness.

Sure they were, where do you think they
learned it. If they didn't believe it, they
wouldn't have paid out great sums of
money. They knew they were going to
the amusement park purgatory, but they
really believed they were not going to
hell because they had bought and confessed
their way out of it.

Quote: Evenbob

My dad never forgave and forgot. You
were punished and NOT forgiven, you
were reminded of what you did even
years later. It's not the punishment that
was bad, it was how you were diminished
in his eyes. This is what keeps you from
doing bad things. My dad was NOT an
enabler, like so many parents are now.

Do you think it might be possible to punish someone, not forget their mistake, and still forgive them? Basically the hardest thing to hear in your post is the part about being diminished in your father's eyes. Please know that it is not your mistakes that define you, that is not who you are. We all make mistakes but we are better than what our mistakes might say about us. The problem with this diminishment is that it doesn't lead to better actions, but rather worse. We live up to how people see us or how we see ourselves or we live down to the level others expect from us or we expect of ourselves. There has to be a way in the midst of our mistakes to not be beaten up or beat ourselves up to the point were we think we can never come back. It is not enabling bad things to continue by forgiving, rather it is enabling someone to change and become the good person God has created them to be by forgiving. You enable someone to be trapped in low self-esteem and left wallowing in their shame by not forgiving and thinking less of someone because they made mistakes. I'm sorry.

Quote: FrGamble

Please know that it is not your mistakes that define you, that is not who you are. .

Of course it's a major part of who
you are, what flimsy feel good
psychology course have you been
taking. Tell a junkie/alcoholic his
addiction is not a lot of who he is.
If he can accept that, and get hard
love from those close to him, maybe
he can kick it day to day.

If you want to spoil a kid and make him
irresponsible, forgive everything he
does and make him aware he has no
constraints, you will always bail him
out. This gives him carte blanche to
act any way he feels, to be as bad as
he likes. It's whats wrong with your
spoiled generation, why the jails are
overflowing. You think you should be
forgiven at every turn, by family and
society. Never underestimate the power
of shame, it gets more constructive
things done than any amount of forgiving
ever will. Not the shame itself, the threat
of shame. It's incentive to stay on the
straight and narrow.

You keep thinking forgiveness is somehow letting someone off the hook or ignoring the consequences of their actions. It is not. It is allowing the person who sinned and the person who was wronged to heal and move on.

You couldn't be more wrong about shame. Shame is not constructive or an incentive, it is exactly the opposite. If you feel shame you become paralyzed and start to believe the lie that you are no good. You can begin to think that the shame defines you, and without the possibility of forgiveness, you are trapped and can lose hope.

Quote: FrGamble

It is allowing the person who sinned and the person who was wronged to heal and move on.

You really truly think anyone who was ever
wronged by someone actually forgives
them? It's hogwash. They may say they've
forgiven, but it's rarely if ever the case.
What they mean is they'll forget about it,
or they won't let it bother them. But truly
forgiving them? Not very likely. People
are very bad at forgiving, they don't
understand how hard it is and how much
work it entails. Plus, you have to really
want to forgive, and most people don't
want that. They like carrying the grudge,
they like placing the blame.

What you peddle is intellectual forgiveness,
the forgiveness of some fake god, or your
own 'not involved' emotionally distant,
meaningless, forgiveness. It's just words,
like have a nice day. You're forgiven.
Meaningless words.

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You couldn't be more wrong about shame. Shame is not constructive .

Oh really, when did shame stop working. It's why
the teacher put the dunces cap on the kid and
made him sit in the corner. It's why the drill
instructor will make everybody do 50 pushups
because of something you did. It's why Hester
Prinn had to wear a scarlet letter. It's why the
Pilgrims put people in the stocks in the public
square. Shaming has always been and always
will be a very effective tool for getting people
to behave themselves. Odd that you would
think it's not 'constructive'.