Simple question?

Quote: Evenbob

LOL, and you accuse me of making stuff
up. Show where you saw this. They 'all'
see the benefit.

I'm just speaking here of personal experience with people who are in counseling. Do you doubt that every single mental health professional will say that forgiveness, be it religiously motivated or not, is essential for us as human beings? Do you doubt that every single one of them would give you the same advice I have in letting go of your grudges. I'm no doctor but I can 100% guarantee that you will feel better if you let go of those past hurts.

Quote:

Shaming has worked for millennia
and will always work.

Why do you continue to wiggle around the issue. Yes, shaming has worked, but it is not the best nor most effective way of getting people to change their behavior. Do you agree with that?

Quote:

As I've said all along. They will be shamed and
left out if they don't play by the rules.

What are you talking about? No body has to play by the rules if they don't want to. Try to make up your own roulette rules at the table and you may end up being shamed but it is not the croupier trying to shame you.

So, what's your position -- or the churches, FrGamble. Or both. Are they the same?

http://diversitytomorrow.com/thread/2327/0/#post81689

Quote: FrGamble

I'm just speaking here of personal experience with people who are in counseling.

Apples and oranges. Do you really think
a shrink in a million years would recommend
the quick fix phony baloney 'forgiveness'
of the Church over his long and complicated
program for a person to reach true forgiveness?
And even then, most people never get there,
even with years of therapy. They still harbor
distrust and resentment deep down, it never
goes away.

The fact that you think you deal in real forgiveness
goes right along with the rest of the fantasy world
you live in. It's pop psychology, it's virtually useless
unless you keep going back for more to feed the
delusion. Which is rather the point, to get the
suckers to keep coming back.

Quote:

Yes, shaming has worked

Shaming is tool that always works. The
Amish have made an art form out of
public shaming, and what they call
shunning. It works very very well to
keep the brethren on the straight and
narrow.

Quote:

What are you talking about? No body has to play by the rules if they don't want to.

What does this have to do with the shaming
the Church does to Gays and divorced people,
yet they never shame the priests who are drunks,
have affairs with women, or molest kids. You
never ever see them singled out and shamed.

Quote: Evenbob

Apples and oranges. Do you really think
a shrink in a million years would recommend
the quick fix

Remind me again why I bother if you continue to ignore me. You keep using quick fix in regard to forgiveness and I have over and over told you that this is not what the Church offers anyone. Why can't you see that? Maybe you think someone comes into the confessional with their sins and after a few minutes walks out completely forgiven and a changed person. Nope. As I've said numerous times it is the elimination of your precious shame and guilt that happens in the confessional so that the person can freely begin and continue on the road to true conversion, change, and forgiveness.

Shame is just a band-aid to just for a moment stop someone from doing something, but it really does nothing. It is as good as force to change behavior, which I would also think is not effective and doesn't truly work. Sure you can shame and force people to do something but it lasts only a moment. If they don't want to do such and such and if they are not convinced that it will be a blessing to them, then they will not do it unless they are shamed or forced into it. Why do you keep singing the effectiveness of shame when it is such a quick fix and so ugly. Every instance you have in your warped view attributed to the Church is ugly and yet you seem to like that way of "helping" people, by shaming them. Shame on you, Bob.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe you think someone comes into the confessional with their sins and after a few minutes walks out completely forgiven

So in the confessional you have the same
training and use the same methods
as a psychiatrist in providing therapy
and long term analysis for delving deeply
into the source of what's wrong with
a person. Are you sure this is the story
you want to go with?

Quote:

Sure you can shame and force people to do something but it lasts only a moment. .

With repetition it gets results. Time outs for kids
are a form of shaming that works very well for
behavior modification..

Quote: Evenbob

So in the confessional you have the same
training and use the same methods
as a psychiatrist in providing therapy
and long term analysis for delving deeply
into the source of what's wrong with
a person. Are you sure this is the story
you want to go with?

What are you talking about. Confession is not anywhere close to being counseling much less psychiatry. It was never meant to be such when Jesus Himself gave us that Sacrament. It is giving people the freedom from shame and guilt so that they can do the long and complex journey of becoming the best version of themselves. Did you think Confession was some type of free quick counseling?!?

Quote:

With repetition it gets results. Time outs for kids
are a form of shaming that works very well for
behavior modification..

Nope, not at all. Negative punishments like time outs or wearing a dunce cap that are repeated over and over without positive reinforcement lead to awful consequences. This is true every time. The more you shame someone over and over without expiration and without some type of positive reinforcement and help you are only making everything worse. Please tell me you recognize this and realize that the repetition of shaming will never, ever, work well for behavior modification.

Quote: FrGamble

Did you think Confession was some type of free quick counseling?!?

I know what confession is, you seemed to
be the one who is confused. Trying to equate
what you do with forgiveness, with what a
shrink does. They aren't even in the same
ballpark. True forgiveness is a very hard
state to attain, most never get there. If you
think your people do, you're deceiving
yourself.

Quote:

Negative punishments like time outs or wearing a dunce cap that are repeated over and over without positive reinforcement

Now we're getting somewhere. You admit
shaming works well as long as it's followed
by other measures. Shaming works as long
as the person understands what the reason
for it is, and why it's happening. The goal
of shaming is to improve behavior, not to
degrade the persons psyche. The army
recruit who is shamed because he caused
his whole squad to do another lap around
the track, he understands he must be a team
player and not be singled out in the future.

Shaming always works, always will. It gets us
right at our core.

Quote: Evenbob

I know what confession is,

You don't seem to have a clue! In fact I am not quite sure you know what a shrink does either.

Quote:

True forgiveness is a very hard
state to attain, most never get there. If you
think your people do, you're deceiving
yourself.

No one is doubting forgiveness is difficult, especially for certain instances. However, no one, besides maybe you, is doubting that it is the single greatest thing we can do for our mental health. If there was something difficult, but not impossible, that could for example give you great physical health wouldn't you do it?

Not to be like a shrink but I am also getting the sense that you keep telling yourself how hard forgiveness is and you can't attain it because you don't want to let go of those grudges and past hurts your are harboring. It is hard but not as hard as you seem to want to make it. It also is the greatest thing you can do for yourself so stop bellyaching about how hard forgiveness is and go get some in your life. If you don't you will be miserable and you will keep saying over and over again forgiveness is too hard, when it is not!

Quote:

Now we're getting somewhere. You admit
shaming works well as long as it's followed
by other measures. Shaming works as long
as the person understands what the reason
for it is, and why it's happening. The goal
of shaming is to improve behavior, not to
degrade the persons psyche.

You were right we were getting somewhere, just to this last sentence. The goal of shaming is not to improve behavior because it DOES NOT do that. However, shaming can make one ready to receive loving correction and guidance. This is why the military uses it so often, to break someone down so they are ready to be built back up. You seem to be focusing on the breaking down part as all that is needed. Just put someone in the stocks, place a dunce cap on their head and magically the problem is fixed. No, doing just that makes the problem worse because shaming by itself is useless, painful, and not constructive. Are you with me here?

Quote: FrGamble

You don't seem to have a clue!

Don't forget, you say this about every
single subject we discuss, from Church
history to present circumstances. You
always (always) say I'm clueless. You
must realize by now that you saying
that so many times has zero impact on
me. It's meaningless.

Quote:

No one is doubting forgiveness is difficult, especially for certain instances.

Difficult? It's almost impossible for most
people. That's why the Church can traffic
in it so easily. You hand out forgiveness
like the Wizard of Oz handed out hearts,
brains and courage. With just about as
much meaning. You push forgiveness
as your feel good emotion. And it works,
for a short time. Remember when the
Wizard gave the scarecrow, lion, and tin
man their gifts and how good that made
you feel? The quick fix, that's what it's job is.
The Church hands out
forgiveness the same way, with just as
much meaning and effect.

Quote:

You seem to be focusing on the breaking down part as all that is needed.?

Nope, you just assume, as always. Shaming
is a whole package, it's not just the shaming
part. That would be sadistic. If I give a kid a
time out, it's not to humiliate him and break
him, it's to teach a lesson. You've been saying
for days that shaming never works, now you're
admitting it does. Good work.

Quote: Evenbob

Don't forget, you say this about every
single subject we discuss, from Church
history to present circumstances. You
always (always) say I'm clueless. You
must realize by now that you saying
that so many times has zero impact on
me. It's meaningless.

It seems meaningless to you even when everyone else says you are always wrong as well. I keep wondering when it will sink in but you have an amazing ability to ignore or brush off anything that shows you are wrong.

Quote:

Difficult? It's almost impossible for most
people.

Why do you keep saying this when you know it is not true? Everyone can forgive and everyone knows it is the best thing to do. Also examine your argument because it doesn't follow. If you say forgiveness is impossible that is why the Church promotes it; that seems like a strange argument. Even if the Church was offering a watered down version of something impossible you would think people would realize it. One of the greatest blessings of faith in God, particularly Christianity, is that true forgiveness which you think is nearly impossible (it is not!) is made easier.

Quote:

Nope, you just assume, as always. Shaming
is a whole package, it's not just the shaming
part.

Oh okay, basically by "shaming" you mean punishment followed by education and positive reinforcement. Yes I agree with you that this is very effective. See you aren't wrong all the time.