Simple question?

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July 18th, 2017 at 6:55:34 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 110
Posts: 11614
Quote: FrGamble
Good so that means you don't need to confront someone face to face to experience the freedom of forgiveness, right?


This is an apples and oranges discussion. You
want to say your diploma from Gotcha U
is just as valid as a real diploma. You want to
degrade forgiveness into a bottom feeder
commodity so you can peddle it in mass
quantities. Look at your leader, Jesus.
He forgives everyfrickingbody.. It's
patently ridiculous and waters down
the word so that it's now meaningless.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 18th, 2017 at 7:10:04 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 45
Posts: 5191
I take it that the above is as close as we are going to get to you acknowledging that you don't need permission or even the presence of the offender to "work out" forgiveness face to face. You know it really is okay to acknowledge you were wrong or hadn't completely thought through something. You don't need to result to foolish, tired, and mean attacks. Don't worry I'm working hard to forgive you.
July 18th, 2017 at 7:38:15 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 110
Posts: 11614
Quote: FrGamble
I take it that the above is as close as we are going to get to you acknowledging that you don't need permission or even the presence of the offender to "work out" forgiveness .


Nope, it takes two to do it, otherwise it's
just a coping mechanism and that's
fine. Just quit calling it forgiveness.
You teach people how to cope, what's
wrong with that. Forgiving someone
who has passed on is very difficult,
they are no longer here to work it
out with. You can do it with lots of
therapy and getting in touch with
that person you were who was hurt.
Or do what most people do, just
let time pass and it will be less and
less important to you. You haven't
forgiven as much as you have forgotten.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 18th, 2017 at 7:54:24 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 45
Posts: 5191
It sounds like you are giving power and importance to the offender again and refusing the ability or possibility of the one who is offended to experience the freedom of true forgiveness without the permission or acceptance of the very o e causing all the pain.

What do you mean by "work it out"?
July 18th, 2017 at 8:13:16 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 110
Posts: 11614
Quote: FrGamble
What do you mean by "work it out"?


You don't need 'permission' from the other
person to work out anything. You need to
understand their perspective, understand
who they are, why they do what they do.
If your father beat you as a child, and you
hate him for it, get to know him better,
find out why he beat you. What drove
him to do it. Forgiveness isn't magic,
it's putting things in proper perspective
and when you do that, your feelings of
hatred and resentment can change to
something else. Like pity and feeling sorry
for them. It's very hard to hate and resent
someone you understand and feel sorry
for.

To do this without the other person is difficult,
all that usually happens is you bury the
feelings and call it forgiveness.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 19th, 2017 at 5:16:51 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 45
Posts: 5191
Quote: Evenbob
You don't need 'permission' from the other
person to work out anything. You need to
understand their perspective, understand
who they are, why they do what they do.
If your father beat you as a child, and you
hate him for it, get to know him better,
find out why he beat you. What drove
him to do it.


No offense, but this could be some of the worst advice I have ever heard. It is also completely unnecessary. I think what you might be getting at is trying to realize that the person who beat you was hurt themselves or there was some other unresolved pain in their life that lead them to be violent. This is important and allows us to separate the person from their actions, an important step towards forgiveness. However, there is no reason to get to know the person who beat you. You can be assured without a doubt that if they are abusing people that there is something very wrong in their life. They don't need to tell you that and chances are they can't. Don't latch your healing and forgiveness to another person who might not be ready to heal themselves and might only be interested in hurting some more.

Quote:
Forgiveness isn't magic,
it's putting things in proper perspective
and when you do that, your feelings of
hatred and resentment can change to
something else. Like pity and feeling sorry
for them. It's very hard to hate and resent
someone you understand and feel sorry
for.


This sounds pretty good, well said. The big difference seems to be that I don't think you really need to get to know someone who has done evil To understand them and feel sorry for them.

Quote:
To do this without the other person is difficult,
all that usually happens is you bury the
feelings and call it forgiveness.


The above diuscussion explains why we differ in the need for having the offending party intimately involved in forgiveness. My question would be: What would you hope to gain from getting to know the perpetrator more than they were acting out of a unresolved pain, saddness, or privation in their life?
July 19th, 2017 at 11:19:44 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 110
Posts: 11614
Quote: FrGamble
However, there is no reason to get to know the person who beat you.


Just understanding them in an abstract
way doesn't work, except as a bandaid,
which is obviously what you're after.

Quote:
I don't think you really need to get to know someone who has done evil To understand them


Yeah, you pretty much do. Otherwise it's not
real, it's just an intellectual exercise. Why are
you so terrified of confronting that which hurt
you, it's where all the healing happens.

Quote:
What would you hope to gain from getting to know the perpetrator


True forgiveness involves understanding the
motivation of the person who hurt you, it
can only be achieved face to face for your
emotions to truly change. That's what
forgiveness is about, changing your feelings.
You don't offer that, you offer the common
swept under the rug forgiveness that isn't
true forgiveness at all.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 19th, 2017 at 12:03:11 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 45
Posts: 5191
Quote: Evenbob
Just understanding them in an abstract
way doesn't work, except as a bandaid,
which is obviously what you're after.


I`m not after a band aid. Two things for you to consider. One, where are you getting this crazy information. Can you provide any reasons or evidence that you have to know the specific and personal reasons why someone abused you to achieve forgiveness? Also what do you learn more by having the specific personal reasons for an evil act versus a more abstract or general one? What if the person who hurt you doesn`t know why they are acting in such a way or is not in touch with their own pain that is causing them to act? Again you are giving all the power to the offender and not the victim. The victim does not need the person who hurt them to achieve real, true, and lasting forgiveness.



Quote:
Yeah, you pretty much do. Otherwise it's not
real, it's just an intellectual exercise. Why are
you so terrified of confronting that which hurt
you, it's where all the healing happens.


You are weird. Sometimes you say something profound and true and then you say something ridiculous. You are right it is precisely in dealing with the terrifying hurt that healing happens but why don`t you see that this is exactly an intellectual or more appropriately a mental and emotional excercise. You can`t physically forgive, it has to come in a change in how you feel and think. You might call that an intellectual excercise, but that is where the true healing takes place.


Quote:
True forgiveness involves understanding the
motivation of the person who hurt you, it
can only be achieved face to face for your
emotions to truly change.


Not really. I don`t need to understand all your motives and everything about you to forgive you. I know that you like many have been hurt by Christians and have received poor example from them in your life. I know that you have only been exposed to materials and information that is very anti-Catholic. This is enough for me to forgive you. I don`t need to meet you face to face. However, after so much time it would only help me to know and understand you more if we did have a face to face. You need it more than I so you can stop thinking I am some monster peddling fantasy and false hope for selfish gain. I know you are not a monster just very confused about Catholicism.
July 19th, 2017 at 1:09:52 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 110
Posts: 11614
Quote: FrGamble
You are weird. Sometimes you say something profound and true and then you say something ridiculous.


Whatever, dude. I'm bored with this conversation.
You were taught the triage version of forgiveness,
a bandaid and move on to the next victim. What
do I care, I have nobody to forgive and certainly
nobody I want to forgive. That's all that matters
to me.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
July 19th, 2017 at 8:50:27 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 45
Posts: 5191
What?!? You can't leave on that note. You can't leave by ignoring how similar we view forgiveness.

We both realize it is difficult (you go so far as to think it is impossible). Neither of us think it is a quick fix or easy and neither of us doubt its importance. Both of us think that it is precisely by dealing with the hurt that will be the place of healing. Both think that it is a change in feelings, thinking, and emotions. Neither of us think that it can be done by repressing feelings or just pretending everything is okay. Both of us agree that you have to realize that the person who harmed you is doing it out of some pain or hurt of his/her own (you seem to think that you need a face to face personal and intimate explination from the offender).

So really I think we are in agreement except for the level of difficulty of forgiveness and the strange requirement you have to meet and work out face to face with the one who hurt you forgiveness. I also think you might have learned an example of something that is purely in the mind but has real practical consequences to humanity. You also I think feel the frustration that the very same kind of forgiveness you and I both believe in is seemingly much easier for the Christian or anyone who believes in a merciful God. Maybe that is why you want to stop the conversation. I know for sure it is NOT because you have nobody to forgive and nobody to ask forgiveness from. Remember it is not as hard as you think and it is the best thing you could ever do for yourself.
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