Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

We were created to be perfect

We were not 'created', and perfection
is an opinion, it's not an actual state
of being. There is no such thing as
true perfection.

Quote:

It isn't control

That's what all controllers say, they
can never admit what they're doing.
The jig would be up, people will
only tolerate control if they don't
think it's happening.

Quote: FrGamble

Perfect has to include free will or it would not be perfect. Sure God could have created us as robots without a choice to love Him and do what is right, but would that really be love or perfect in your mind? For someone to be perfect they cannot be forced to always do the right thing, it has to be a free choice. This means of course that the perfect person can also chose evil and hatred.

I don't have any problem with freewill, just anything you describe as perfect that can make errors, including humans.

That's not even controversial, IMO or wishy washy make believe on my part. I don't need to twist logic to make my point. Just seems obvious.

Quote: Evenbob

We were not 'created',

Please, do you have any reason why you say things like this? You can't just say stuff because you like to and pretend it is true.

Quote:

That's what all controllers say, they
can never admit what they're doing.
The jig would be up, people will
only tolerate control if they don't
think it's happening.

Answers like this one and the one above just show me that you have nothing to add or say to keep the debate going so let's move on.

Quote: rxwine

I don't have any problem with freewill, just anything you describe as perfect that can make errors, including humans.

That's not even controversial, IMO or wishy washy make believe on my part. I don't need to twist logic to make my point. Just seems obvious.

It is obvious that something perfect would not make errors. However do you think something perfect needs to have the possibility to make errors?

Quote: FrGamble

Please, do you have any reason why you say things like this?

For the 40th time, until there
is proof of a creation, you can't
call it one and be taken seriously.

Quote:

Answers like this one on.

I was going to post links about
how religion controls people,
but you would just mock them
like you always do. When I was
a Xtion in the 70's, the first few
weeks were fine. Then the attempts
at control started. I could do this
and not that. I could say some things
but not others. And that was just
the beginning..

Quote: FrGamble

It is obvious that something perfect

I finally looked up what the
word 'perfect' means in the
NT. Turns out nobody knows!

I read 4 articles on what it means
and they were all different. So
I am right yet again, nobody can
be 'perfect' because nobody can
explain what that state even is.

"The more I look at it the more convinced I am that ‘perfect’ is the wrong translation but at the same time I know why no one has tried to change it: nothing else quite works."

And you wonder why outsiders
think this religion is silliness
personified..

Quote: Evenbob

For the 40th time, until there
is proof of a creation, you can't
call it one and be taken seriously.

If something exists that doesn't necessarily exist, is contingent on something else, and does not have the reason for its existence in itself then how else can you explain it? What more proof do you need? Do you really think things just popped into existence without a cause.

It might be easier to think of things in motion. Do you doubt that something in motion had something act upon it? Isn't its motion proof enough?

Now for the 100th time, please give me a reason why you think things were not created.

Quote:

I was going to post links about
how religion controls people,
but you would just mock them
like you always do. When I was
a Xtion in the 70's, the first few
weeks were fine. Then the attempts
at control started. I could do this
and not that. I could say some things
but not others. And that was just
the beginning..

Mocking is your forte, not mine. I simply point out that sometimes when you post links you don't critically think about where the information is coming from. If you take that as mocking then there is nothing I can do about how you perceive something.

Look, I've said this before about your experiences of Christianity and the Church - they are not the universal experience of everyone. I'm sorry, I really am, that you have not had good experiences and it has warped your perspective of all of Christianity, but what you are saying based on your personal experience doesn't hold. However, just like you recently proved the power of witness testimony as evidence you also are proving the powerful evidence of personal experience.

Quote: Evenbob

I finally looked up what the
word 'perfect' means in the
NT. Turns out nobody knows!

Is it surprising to you that something we personally have no experience of is hard to define? I sound like Plato but the ideals are real, in fact more real than our shadowy images of them.

Quote: FrGamble

something we personally have no experience of is hard to define .

So you admit you push a concept
without even knowing what it
means. No wonder there are
2500 different versions of your
religion, it can be whatever you
want to be. My interpretation
of the NT is that it's nonsense,
and my interpretation is just as
valid as anybody elses.

Quote: FrGamble

If something exists that doesn't necessarily

You have no proof, only theory. Stop
stating your theory as fact.

Quote:

I've said this before about your experiences of Christianity

Yes, my experience was very mild.
I know people that got a divorce
and were literally kicked off the
church board, and their special
pew revoked. They were shunned
at all church activities and had to
find another place to worship.

The church tries to control all
your actions. Look at your church
and sex. They try and control every
aspect of the sex lives of it's members.
Even making them confess thoughts
that might be offensive to the
church.

Google this, Catholic mind control.
There are tons of articles by former
nuns and priests and Catholics about
what a mind control factory the Church
is.