Simple question?

Quote: Evenbob

So you admit you push a concept
without even knowing what it
means.

What are you talking about? Of course I know what perfection means, as do you. Something that is hard to define or will always exceed our limited definitions is not the same as not knowing what it means.

Quote: Evenbob

You have no proof, only theory. Stop
stating your theory as fact.

Is it a theory or a fact that something that is in motion has a cause?

Quote:

Yes, my experience was very mild.

Mild? It sounds horrific and I would probably have some of the same opinions as you if I experienced it. Just please try to see that what you experienced is not the universal experience of Christianity. Try to shake free from the dark colored glasses your experiences have screwed unto your head.

Quote: FrGamble

Of course I know what perfection

No, you just picked a definition
and went with it. You really need
to research this, no two Xtions
have the same definition of how
the word is used in the NT.

Quote: FrGamble

Is it a theory

If your theory of creation was a fact,
it would stated as such in every book
on the subject. It's not. What does
that tell you.

Quote:

Mild? It sounds horrific .

It is horrific when a church tries
to control your marriage. Look
at how they attempt to control
Gays in the Church. Horrific
doesn't even cover it.

Quote: FrGamble

The great thing about morality is it is objective and moral.

Now you funny to.

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I am sure that the "voice in your head" that convicts you when you do something wrong

The voice in my head doesn't convict me, it let's me get away with stuff. If it was wrong, I wouldn't do it, why would you? Because you can blame it on the devil, or because you know forgiveness is certain? Everybody does what they think is right, at that time or they rationalize it is so. People that go around committing crimes, think that it is the right thing to do, if only for them, and only at that time. But they don't go around doing wrong.

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You, and all of us, are made in the image of God.

How has the irony escaped you, that the finest creation God could create is humans? People are a lousy example of perfection.

I don't know how you can square all the suffering, with some benevolent God? It seems like it serves the church better than a creator.

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You can of course develop and strengthen that conscience

You are saying God didn't get it right, and I can improve on what he thought was best. ?

Quote:

You can also ignore and weaken that conscience by ignorance and sin.

Maybe, but it's not easy.

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As you know there are times in your life when you don't do the things you want to do and you do the very things you wish you wouldn't.

I disagree, at some point we concede and what we decide to do, is what happens, because of a conscious choice we make after internal deliberation. Ergo, we do what we choose. "even if we choose not to decide, we still have made a choice"

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It is the same for me. What makes us do that?

Seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

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The peace I enjoy comes precisely from my religion and the gift of the unconditional love of Jesus Christ.

In other words, you are doing it because it makes you feel better. You are doing it, for you.

Quote: petroglyph

The voice in my head doesn't convict me, it let's me get away with stuff. If it was wrong, I wouldn't do it, why would you?

We are talking about different things. It is not the voice in your head, namely reason and intellect that let's you get away with stuff. The voice that does that is the voice from your gut or other places that lets your passion or emotions rule. It is the voice that says, "I really want it and I don't care if it is wrong or what I shouldn't do, who is to tell me what to do, I want it and it is okay this time or okay for me." That is the "voice" that gets us to do something wrong or more accurately tells us not to think about or worry if it is wrong at all.

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People that go around committing crimes, think that it is the right thing to do, if only for them, and only at that time. But they don't go around doing wrong.

I agree in the sense that people can allow and do allow their passions to override their reason a lot. It is only for a time though. We can forget about right and wrong only until the passions cease or they disappoint us, then we realize we did the wrong thing and wonder how we could have been so stupid?

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How has the irony escaped you, that the finest creation God could create is humans? People are a lousy example of perfection.

Human beings are the most amazing, beautiful, and finest things beside our creator that we can ever experience in our universe. We are a lousy example of perfection that is for sure. However, we are a staggering and awesome example of potential.

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I don't know how you can square all the suffering, with some benevolent God? It seems like it serves the church better than a creator.

It doesn't serve the Church or the Creator. It is a painful reality that is always the real source of disbelief in God - for me and for everyone.

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You are saying God didn't get it right, and I can improve on what he thought was best. ?

What makes you think that? No, I think God wants us to be part of growing in virtue and put in some effort. This is the way He set it up, do you think that is wrong?

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Maybe, but it's not easy.

I agree. Deadening our conscience, living in ignorance, and sin is hard work.

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I disagree, at some point we concede and what we decide to do, is what happens, because of a conscious choice we make after internal deliberation. Ergo, we do what we choose. "even if we choose not to decide, we still have made a choice"

I agree.

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Seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

Do you think our passions have anything to do with having us do something that seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but then later turns out to not have been?

Quote: Evenbob

If your theory of creation was a fact,
it would stated as such in every book
on the subject. It's not. What does
that tell you.

Umm...Bob, every book does say that it is a fact that if something is in motion there was cause or force that acted upon it. This is not a theory. It is logically fact that is demonstrated by science. It is the same way with creation. It is a fact that things don't just create themselves, especially impossibly complex things.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you think our passions have anything to do with having us do something that seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but then later turns out to not have been?

Of course, people make mistakes.

I'm not sure if you had a specific meaning of passion intended?

Quote: FrGamble

It is a fact that things don't just create themselves, especially impossibly complex things.

"The overwhelming consensus of the scientific community is that creation science fails to produce scientific hypotheses, and courts have ruled that it is a religious, not a scientific, view. It fails to qualify as a science because it lacks empirical support, supplies no tentative hypotheses, and resolves to describe natural history in terms of scientifically untestable causes."

Quote: petroglyph

In other words, you are doing it because it makes you feel better. You are doing it, for you.

We do everything for selfish reasons,
whatever those reasons are. A man
may hate his marriage and his family,
but knows if he deserts them he
would never forgive himself, so he
stays. It's a selfish act, he's doing
it because it makes less unhappy
than leaving. All acts are selfish
in origin.