Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

I thought earlier you said the Romans were pretty open to lots of different gods being worshipped

If you were laid back about it, didn't
get in peoples faces like the Xtions
did. One thing they really didn't
like was the constant end of days
thing that was Jesus main theme. Pagans
weren't like that at all, they were more
upbeat and friendly. Even pagans today
are that way, they don't have a stick
up their arse like know it all Xtions do.

Quote:

and you also mentioned that you think the early Christians still celebrated the pagan holidays but changed their meaning.

Wow, you really don't know your history.
That came much later, after the Church
was the official state religion. In the first
300 years they just ignored the pagan
holidays.

Quote:

I'm not really sure if you are clear on why the early Christians were persecuted so much. .

Xtions were mistrusted and considered
dangerous because they flat out refused
to participate in the pagan rituals and
do sacrifices to the emperor who was
considered god. The were also looked at
as cannibals because they 'ate' the body
of Christ in their own ceremonies. They
were considered dangerous and because
they ignored the Roman gods, they were
blamed for pissing the gods off and
everything bad that happened was
blamed on the Xtions.

Secretive, cliquish, anti-social, anti
everything pagan, end of the earth
preaching, cannabalistic, even incestual
because they greeted each other
with a kiss on the mouth. Always
bullying people into converting. They
were reviled and hated and looked
at as a 'secret society'. I can totally
see that. Even today they act that way.
Look how a church will shun one of
it members for breaking rule. They
ignore him like he doesn't exist, he's
no longer a member of the secret
society. I've seen it happen.

Writing in about A.D. 196, Tertullian said, “The Christians are to blame for every public disaster
and every misfortune that befalls the people. If the Tiber rises to the walls, if the Nile fails to rise and flood the
fields, if the sky withholds its rain, if there is earthquake or famine or plague, straightway the cry arises: ‘The
Christians to the lions!’”

Quote: aceofspades

Ok, assuming arguendo, that you are correct in that there must be an unmoved mover, why is your "God" more believable than other "supreme beings", or creation by emergence, creation by world parents, creation from the cosmic egg, creation by Earth divers? You cannot disprove those just like you cannot prove that your "God" did it

These argumenta support God's existence but you are correct in that it doesn't point directly to Christanity. You asked specifically about God's existence and there is plenty that points unquestionably to yes. To determine who God is we have to depend on revelation. Human reason alone can be assured that God exists. Who God is, His attributes, how to worship, etc. are different questions.

Your statements about multiple God's, "world parents", eggs, multiverse, etc. don't escape any of the arguments that show clearly that there is no infinite regress or that something cannot come from nothing or the contingency argument.

Bob, I don't know how you can be more laid back than a group of people who stayed to themselves scared to worship or act in public and worshiping in underground cemeteries. Christians were not walking the streets biblically preaching, that was a death sentence. As you mentioned early Christians began thinking that Jesus would return soon so it wasn't like they were too interested in worldly power or changing the Roman Empire. As you mentioned they mostly stayed to themselves and hidden.

Nero and others did blame them for the troubles of Rome, mostly caused by Nero and other's evil and selfish actions. Do you think Nero and others were correct in blaming the foreigner and poor Christians for the burning of Rome or if the Tiber flooded?

I'm glad you know what the Christians were falsely accised of and you are right. Tertullian and Justin both speak of being considered cannabals and even of having orgies because the Eucharist was called the "Agape feast" of Love Feast. I guess you are siding with the Romans in that Christians were dangerous and destructive. Do you really believe this? What happened to Western civilization when it embraced Christianity. Was it destroyed? Or did it begin universities, hospitals, and begin the flourishing of human civilization through art, music, and law? What do you think?

You are also right in that behavior of shunning or treating those who leave badly is a sign of a cult. There are still some fringe Christian denominations that do this today and you would be right to avoid them. However, if that is your only experience of Christianity then I would hope you don't judge everyone by your bad experiences. Visit a mainline Protestant Church or Catholic Church to see healthy communities.

Quote: FrGamble

Bob, I don't know how you can be more laid back than a group of people who stayed to themselves

Yet they got new converts all
the time. How did they do
that if they weren't talking to
people and converting them.
They were reviled for their
end of days melodrama, but
that's how they got converts.
Better hurry, time is almost up,
the end is near. It's what Jesus
railed about for 3 years, he
had an apocalyptic ministry.
Something most Xtions totally
ignore.

How did they get converts indeed!?! That is a great question! It is kind of miraculous when you think about it. A small group of ragtag mostly uneducated poor folks hiding underground whose punishment to join them was to be fed to lions. Yet not only did they grow, but eventually the most powerful Empire the world has seen, who hated Christians, became Christian itself. It is nothing short of amazing.

Quote: FrGamble

How did they get converts indeed!?!

They got them the same way they
get them now, by talking to people.
Nothing miraculous about it. In
fact, I've seen the math broken down
and the religion expanded exactly
as it should have given the huge
amount of time involved. Hundreds
and then thousands of years.

From my understanding they hid
their services, but they were out in
public every day with everybody
else, working and socializing and
talking to people. Of course they
got converts, people are always
looking for something new.

My own wife has switched church's
6 times in the last 20 years. Each
one is different from the last. Different
faces, different ways of doing things.

So people weren't forced into it. Conversion happened naturally as others observed the lives of these Christians people realized they weren't evil or messed up like the authorities claimed they were and they had something special, new, and different. A God who loved them and sacrificed for them rather than the other way around. We agree on this Bob.

What I think is still miraculous is why other religions that do the same didn't have the same success. Heck eventually the entire Roman Empire was converted and from this conversion the beginning of the glorious Western civilization began (the destruction of which seems to hinge on whether or not people leave the faith).

Quote: FrGamble

So people weren't forced into it. Conversion happened naturally as others observed the lives

It happened more like this. Say one
person converted one other person
every 2 years for 10 years. That's
not very many. But if those 5 converted
5 more in 10 years, they all converted
5, and so on, in 200 years you have
a couple million Xtions. That's how
Amway did it and it only took them
20 years.

What I think is still miraculous is why other religions that do the same didn't have the same success.

Well I think that model of building relationships and people seeing hiw wonderful Christianity is was how it works and I'm glad you recognize it.

Quote: FrGamble

Well I think that model of building relationships and people seeing hiw wonderful Christianity is was how it works and I'm glad you recognize it.

It works for most cults, nothing
special about Xtionity. People
are very gullible and always
looking for something new.
They like belonging to groups
and being told what to do.