Simple question?

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January 1st, 2016 at 4:56:05 PM permalink
Wizard
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Quote: pew
What you're describing is Calvinism as in John Calvin. The puritans were Calvinistic in their soteriology (how a person actually comes to be saved) Calvin said people are so depraved they are unable to even seek God on their own let alone become saved by any action on their part. Rather, God predestined from eternity past (not at birth) the "elect" that would come irresistibly to Christ. There's way more to it but that's the gist.


I think 9 out of 10 conservative Christians would agree with Calvin. They love that verse I quoted to back up their belief that god chooses us, not the other way around.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
January 1st, 2016 at 4:59:22 PM permalink
pew
Member since: Jan 8, 2013
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Quote: Nareed
I don't mind their delusions, when they're not trying to impose them on everyone else.
The most important thing is not to make you do anything or act in any particular way but to make sure you are told so you have no excuse. As far as making laws and stuff like that I think everyone has an agenda and supports laws and social morays that go along with the individuals beliefs.
January 1st, 2016 at 5:11:41 PM permalink
pew
Member since: Jan 8, 2013
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Quote: Wizard
I think 9 out of 10 conservative Christians would agree with Calvin. They love that verse I quoted to back up their belief that god chooses us, not the other way around.
It's not nearly 9 of 10 but there are many. This subject is complex. There's a lot more to it having to do with Gods foreknowledge of what a free person will do and Gods predestining what a person must do. There is a huge difference. As a matter of fact many Christians view Calvinism as heretical or at least not orthodox.
January 1st, 2016 at 5:19:45 PM permalink
pew
Member since: Jan 8, 2013
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By the way. Using conservative and liberal regarding Christianity is tough because those words carry such strong meaning in our society and politics and have a different meaning religion wise. Fundamental is a better word than conservative.
January 4th, 2016 at 6:38:47 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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In summary:

"God" created Hell along with the rules that send people there. He then sent himself down to Earth, where he sacrificed himself to save us from himself.

I literally cannot see any other possible interpretation. Unfortunately it makes zero logical sense. In a protection racket, a criminal creates a threat, then gives you the means to "save" yourself from the threat he created. This is the same thing in principle.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
January 4th, 2016 at 9:21:51 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 106
Posts: 10692
Quote: Nareed
In summary:

"God" created Hell along with the rules that send people there. He then sent himself down to Earth, where he sacrificed himself to save us from himself.
.


That's it in a nutshell. And the interesting
thing is, hell isn't in the OT. Not the hell
where you're punished forever for being
a sinner. That's a NT invention, made up
by whoever wrote the gospels.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 4th, 2016 at 1:27:19 PM permalink
pew
Member since: Jan 8, 2013
Threads: 2
Posts: 766
Quote: Nareed
In summary:

"God" created Hell along with the rules that send people there. He then sent himself down to Earth, where he sacrificed himself to save us from himself.

I literally cannot see any other possible interpretation. Unfortunately it makes zero logical sense. In a protection racket, a criminal creates a threat, then gives you the means to "save" yourself from the threat he created. This is the same thing in principle.
There are no "rules" that send people to hell. Everyone who has ever lived except for Christ Himself deserves hell, we can't change that. It's by Gods grace alone that people escape that awful fate.
January 4th, 2016 at 1:55:25 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 312
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Quote: pew
There are no "rules" that send people to hell. Everyone who has ever lived except for Christ Himself deserves hell, we can't change that.


The term "deserve" implies a judgment. The term "judgment" implies a consciousness capable of abstract thought and of adopting, or devising, and implementing a value system.

In other words, it's someone's judgment that we all deserve Hell. Whose?
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
January 5th, 2016 at 10:58:03 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4980
This is an interesting thread and I'm sorry I missed it.

Just a couple of my thoughts. I think Nareed came close to recognizing the idea of salvation when she was asking about the old idea of the bargain or covenant between God and humanity.

Quote: Nareed
I don't understand the bargain Jehovah/Jesus propose in "salvation"


I think God wants to save us from this old idea that there is something we have to earn or do to be loved by God. Throughout the history of religion and through the OT there are covenants and bargains made where God says I will do this for my part of the deal and you will do this as your part of the bargain. Over and over we showed that we could not live up to our end of the bargain or covenant. In the person of Jesus Christ God's divine justice and love reach its climax. Jesus fulfills the covenant perfectly and also takes the burden or price of our failure to live up to the deal. All that God wants in the new and eternal covenant of Jesus is to be in a relationship with us. We are free from the impossible burden of living up to God's law and the guilt and shame that comes from our failures. All of this idea of earning or deserving God's love is taken from us and in its place is nothing more is asked of us than entering into a loving relationship with God.

I know that I am often accused of having a strange concept of love but in answer to Nareed wondering why we must have faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus I would say that these things are just the normal characteristics of having a healthy relationship with anyone. So my answer to the simple question of what it means to be saved is to enter into a personal real relationship with Jesus Christ who loves us unconditionally and has taken away the burden we have of trying to be perfect or somehow earning His love.

The natural outgrowth of such a realization is the change in our lives of striving to do the best we can in thankfulness of such mercy and love shown to us. The other VERY important outgrowth of this salvation is we strive to imitate the love of Jesus Christ in our interactions with every other human person. This means that first and most importantly is loving people despite their sins and mistakes, just like Jesus has done for us. I believe once people experience this amazing love of Jesus and hopefully in His followers the natural consequence will be the free and natural desire to follow God's moral law as best as they can without fear of condemnation or the need to legislate. Remember Jesus had just two laws: Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.


I also wanted to briefly share my thoughts on predestination that came up a couple of times in the discussion. Predestination is an understanding that God being outside of time knows very well what we will do and eventually choose. However, this doesn't limit or force our free will anymore than from a vantage point of seeing two trains on the same track heading around a corner gives you a knowledge that they will crash. The heresy comes with something called "double-predestination" that proposes that God predestines some people will definitely go to Hell or Heaven. That no matter what they would choose or do God created some people without the hope of Heaven. This goes against Scripture and God's desire that all would be saved and accept the love of Jesus Christ. Sorry for being so late to the conversation.
January 6th, 2016 at 12:22:45 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 106
Posts: 10692
Quote: FrGamble
So my answer to the simple question of what it means to be saved is to enter into a personal real relationship with Jesus Christ who loves us unconditionally


What you don't understand is, this is nutjob
talk. The guy has been dead for 2000 years,
the only relationship we could have would be
in our heads, a fantasy. What good is that to
anybody. There are far too many suspensions
of disbelief here, it borders on being sent to
the Funny Farm for strict observation. And
that never ends well..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.