Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

What failures of YHWH?

Making a contract he knew the other side could not keep, the mass murder of almost everyone on Earth, the overreaction against primitives at the Tower of Babel, wanton torture and murder of the Egyptian people, the whole thing with Job, just to name a few.

Quote: FrGamble

We are not talking about a bet. God is certain of the outcome and that outcome will be the recognition that all God desires is a loving relationship with a people whom He loves not because of what they do or don't, but because of who they are.

I'm reminded of the filler scenes in the Rocky & Bullwinkle Show, when Bullwinkle attempted to pull a rabbit out of his hat. You wonder how a tiger fit in there, not that Bullwinkle couldn't do the trick. But also pulling out a tiger was more impressive. This feels like that. It's very impressive, but it's the wrong trick.

Quote:

It is surely possible though to have a relationship with someone who is alive and is loving and powerful enough to communicate with us in the most intimate ways through our conscience, thoughts, mind, imagination, feelings, intellect, soul, and will.

Present!

Quote:

This is a relationship that is actually more real than any you may ever have with another human being.

I'd better not say how this makes me feel.

Quote:

You would think and hope so wouldn't you?

Not really.

If loving others meant leaving them alone unless and until they seek you out or ask you for something, that would be fine. Unfortunately you have the proactive (not a real word) types that think "love" means butting into your life and correcting it by any means necessary. These means range in form and intensity, but tend to be very unpleasant. At their worst, they're deadly.

You should know. Your church is filled with such people.

Quote: Nareed

Making a contract he knew the other side could not keep, the mass murder of almost everyone on Earth, the overreaction against primitives at the Tower of Babel, wanton torture and murder of the Egyptian people, the whole thing with Job, just to name a few.

Oh no remember we were made to be able to keep the contract we chose not to. However instead of abandoning us to our own devices and choices His love and mercy continue to pursue and forgive us. In regards to the flood you continue to not grasp the uncomfortable truth that our actions have consequences. It is a lesson we should heed again and one the Pope is calling us all to recognize in regards to global warming. The tower of Babel is an interesting one. It is a story of our desire to once again earn our salvation through technical or human means. We learned then and to continue to see today what a problem this is for humanity. You continue to bring up the plagues and death of the Egyptian first born as if it was wanton. Please remember that God takes very serious the slavery and murder of innocents and after repeated pleas and warnings if people do not change their ways their evil comes to them and there are consequences. Job is a story to help us deal with the inevitable suffering and the mystery as to why bad things happen to good people. I think it is fairly clear that these are all failures of humanity and God teaching and showing us with patience that sin and evil are real and destructive. Eventually, God Himself suffers for these sins to free us from guilt and the ultimate consequences of evil and to show the depth of His merciful and unconditional love for all of humanity.

Quote: FrGamble

This is a relationship that is actually more real than any you may ever have with another human being..

You would have made a good used car
salesman. 'Not only is this a low mileage
car, it was only driven on Sunday to church.
This will be the best car you've ever owned.'
lol

Look at all the people that have dropped out
of the Christian religion to become atheists.
Did they really abandon a relationship with
Jesus that was the best they ever had? No,
they found no Jesus at all and gave up in
disgust.

I just recently heard a talk from an atheist who became a Christian and it was wonderful. You should check her out at Jennifer Fulwiler

Quote: FrGamble

Oh no remember we were made to be able to keep the contract we chose not to.

You made the character of Jehovah too powerful to be credible. He's All-powerful, right? He knows what will happen, yet he goes ahead anyway.

I'd bet just about every person who's ever lived has thought at least once "If I'd known then..." Jehovah, unlike us poor mortals, did know then, every single time.

Quote:

In regards to the flood you continue to not grasp the uncomfortable truth that our actions have consequences.

See above: all-powerful. Now, let's assume there were children and babies when the flood was unleashed by this vengeful god. Which of their actions could conceivably deserve drowning as a consequence? And why didn't the all-powerful "God" save any of them?

Quote:

You continue to bring up the plagues and death of the Egyptian first born as if it was wanton.

Yes, I do. Because it was wanton.

Quote:

Please remember that God takes very serious the slavery and murder of innocents and after repeated pleas and warnings if people do not change their ways their evil comes to them and there are consequences.

Do you know the Egyptians regarded their king as a living god? This was not some ritualistic formula mouthed at appropriate state functions. it was accepted and believed by at least a vast majority of Egyptians. Unlike other empires and great nations of the era, Egypt suffered few rebellions and even fewer attempts, successful and not, to kill and overthrow the sitting pharaoh. They even accepted women as king, when they could make the claim of divinity stick.

Jehovah sewed death and pain and torture on all Egyptians, for what was ultimately the responsibility of one man. it's not that the Egyptians supported their god-king, it's that they could literally do nothing else. But the Exodus story mentions nothing about what ordinary Egyptians did or said, does it? For all we know, every literate person in the Two Lands sent daily missives to the king pleading with him to release the Hebrews.

The Exodus story is nothing more than a founding myth, staged against the most powerful nation of the time. But instead of having the Israelites rebel, or even flee, we get a demonstration that "My one god is more powerful than all your gods put together."

There's some speculation that the story originated around the time of Ramses ][. It makes sense, as that was when Egypt was past its greatest extent and power, and began a slow, gradual decline which would end with successive conquests by Persia, Macedonia and finally Rome. Had the story originated later, perhaps it would have been set in Assyria or Babylon, and had a different cast of characters.

Quote:

Job is a story to help us deal with the inevitable suffering and the mystery as to why bad things happen to good people.

The only mystery is why Jehovah is such a bastard towards Job.

Quote:

I think it is fairly clear that these are all failures of humanity

Only insofar as actual humans made up all that stuff in the Bible.

Quote:

Eventually, God Himself suffers for these sins to free us from guilt and the ultimate consequences of evil and to show the depth of His merciful and unconditional love for all of humanity.

Atonement is not transferable. One person cannot atone for what someone else did. So even if all were as you say it is, and it's not, Jehovah sending Jesus down to be killed by fairly horrible means (not surpassed until Christians took over state-sanctioned killing, BTW) is at best misguided and at worst psychotic.

Quote: Nareed

Atonement is not transferable. One person cannot atone for what someone else did.

This is the core problem with Christianity,
atonement is indeed not transferable. You
cannot commit a crime and have someone
else take the punishment in your place. If
it were possible, it would make the criminal
justice system laughable.

A sin is a crime against god. If there truly
is a system of punishment for such a crime
(there isn't) you can't transfer the punishment
to somebody else, it turns the whole system
into a joke. So you have to ask, what is
Christianity really about, then. And the answer
is, greedy men wanting power over others
and passing off a lame story to get it.

Quote: Nareed

You made the character of Jehovah too powerful to be credible. He's All-powerful, right? He knows what will happen, yet he goes ahead anyway.

I'd bet just about every person who's ever lived has thought at least once "If I'd known then..." Jehovah, unlike us poor mortals, did know then, every single time.

Such is the risk of truly loving others and giving them free will. Again God could have created you and me as robots forced to do His will but I for one am glad He gave us the gift of freedom so that we could truly love and act.

Quote:

See above: all-powerful. Now, let's assume there were children and babies when the flood was unleashed by this vengeful god. Which of their actions could conceivably deserve drowning as a consequence? And why didn't the all-powerful "God" save any of them?

It was not for their actions that these children died but because of the evil actions of others. God did save those who were innocent by the way, don't think that death or sin gets the last say. Love and mercy always conquer evil.

Quote:

Yes, I do. Because it was wanton.

What is wanton and false is your continuing to call it so.

Quote:

Jehovah sewed death and pain and torture on all Egyptians, for what was ultimately the responsibility of one man. it's not that the Egyptians supported their god-king, it's that they could literally do nothing else. But the Exodus story mentions nothing about what ordinary Egyptians did or said, does it? For all we know, every literate person in the Two Lands sent daily missives to the king pleading with him to release the Hebrews.

Maybe they did and then kept ripping the newborn sons of Hebrew mothers away from them and throwing them in the Nile. Really, you want to say that they could do literally nothing else. This argument didn't work for the Nazis, why do you think it should work for the Egyptians, especially in the face of such obvious signs that the Pharoh was not the all powerful god-king.

Quote:

The Exodus story is nothing more than a founding myth, staged against the most powerful nation of the time. But instead of having the Israelites rebel, or even flee, we get a demonstration that "My one god is more powerful than all your gods put together."

I think you finally correctly understand an aspect of the Exodus story.

Quote:

The only mystery is why Jehovah is such a bastard towards Job.

I'm amazed at how you think God who uses a story about a fictional man named Job to teach us all that He is present to us still in our suffering and to hold out hope and persevere in difficult times is being a bastard. I'm holding out hope that you will come to your senses, but it is requiring the patience of Job.

Quote:

Atonement is not transferable. One person cannot atone for what someone else did. So even if all were as you say it is, and it's not, Jehovah sending Jesus down to be killed by fairly horrible means (not surpassed until Christians took over state-sanctioned killing, BTW) is at best misguided and at worst psychotic.

You continue to use this statement, but I'm not sure how it applies. Two things are going on in the saving action of Jesus' passion, death, and resurrection. First the fulfillment of the covenant of God by the perfect sinless life of Jesus. This is allows God's law to be completely fulfilled and ushers in a new and eternal covenant. Then by Christ's sacrifice He pays the price for all sin past, present, and future so that the just punishment for our sins is fulfilled and we are freed from the guilt of our sins and God sets us free. You can see this in the same light of the Passover sacrifice of the lamb. The blood of the lamb freed the ancient Hebrews from slavery and death. The blood of the Lamb of God frees us from the slavery of sin and death. You might look at this as the atonement that is God giving His life for us all. God pays the price for our sins and only the perfect God can do this. This covenant is sealed and complete in Jesus. His is the only sacrifice that can attain this.

This might help you to understand why all those early heresies in Christianity were rejected. Jesus had to be fully human to fulfill the old covenant God established with humanity and He had to be fully God in order to provide the perfect sacrifice of love in giving His life so that we would no longer be on the hook. It is an eternal and unconditional loving gift that Jesus gives us by shedding His blood like the Lamb of God so that the consequences of our sin, namely death, passes over us.

Quote: FrGamble

You might look at this as the atonement that is God giving His life for us all. God pays the price for our sins and only the perfect God can do this.

God gave nothing up, he's god, he
knew he wouldn't die. The silliness
of this is beyond comprehension.
In the myth, there was never even the
slightest chance that god had anything
to lose at all. There was no price paid,
it was a slam dunk before it ever happened,
in the myth. It's a meaningless symbolic
gesture and should be treated as such.
Saying it's real doesn't do anybody any
good. That's whats so great about Hindu
stories, nobody claims they were real.
To suggest they were would totally devalue
them.

Quote: Nareed

Then "God" made people who all deserve to be in Hell, unless they submit to his protection racket so they may be "saved" from the Hell "God" set up in the first place.

"It's good to be the king."

That is correct. Except for the protection racket part. God doesn't charge for the privilege.