Authority

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6 members have voted

December 30th, 2015 at 4:13:33 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Face
This is really turning me onto nature vs nurture.


That's a rather fallacious dichotomy.

Here goes a Heinleinian-style argument. Pay close attention:

In the second place, everything inherent to you and everything you experience affects you in some way. Isolating one over the other is an exercise in futility, and really just a means to bolster either racial or egalitarian theories.

But in the first place, we all have minds and free will. We can't control what we are or much of what we experience, but we can decide what to do about it. This trumps nature, nurture and nurture's "God" to boot.



Quote:
It likewise stands that one with very poor experiences, which you and Nareed have admitted, would solidify one the other way.


The impotence or conditional willingness of authority should be self-evident.

To take a recent example, consider the infamous "afluenza" teen's case. Do you seriously think the judge or jury who gave this miscreant a slap on the wrist for a heinous act actually believed the arguments the lawyer(s) made? Not a chance. You can fool some people some of the time, but people can fool themselves all the time.

What such preposterous arguments do is give a plausible reason for people to do what they want to do but cannot justify doing. Like the infamous "gay-panic" defense worked in the 90s to exonerate murderers. It's all the same thing.
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December 30th, 2015 at 4:28:27 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: beachbumbabs
maybe Zen Buddhism is an exception to that, .


Zen is not a religion. It has no higher
power, it doesn't worship anything.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
December 30th, 2015 at 5:37:55 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
Quote: Evenbob
Zen is not a religion. It has no higher
power, it doesn't worship anything.


Thanks for the clarification. I thought that was the case, but didn't have the knowledge to make the distinction.
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December 31st, 2015 at 1:21:45 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18631
Quote: Nareed
Do you think in general atheists have more issues with authority than the faithful?

I mean specifically distrust of authority, and even more specifically the notion that authorities either can't or won't help them.

I don't think such distrust "causes" atheism at all. But since religion is largely a matter of authority, distrust of authority would be an emotional aid in making the rational decision to stop believing in "God." The various arguments from authority for "God" would be nearly powerless.


I believe all our behaviors are the natural distribution of evolutionary diversity -- including religion.

You are more or less susceptible to certain things -- just as people have certain traits others don't have.

In this approach, I'm not assigning blame if you happen to be more susceptible to supernatural ideas. I have a good friend who has lots of wonderful traits but I find that she sure is willing to take various sales pitches with little regard for critical examination. As an example, I ended up deep in the woods (literally) with her and her friend listening to a classic (and illegal) pyramid scheme. Airplane (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane_game ) There were at least 50 people there of all ages.

BTW, we drove out there, with her refusing to say what was up, sure I would be convinced, (I guess) or afraid I might object straight out.

OTOH, I believe all traits can lead to survival. Maybe for 30 years a different cultish group hides out waiting for the End. Well, one of these groups might be the survivor of a major catastrophe just by luck, of being off in an odd place when something happens. Not for being right though.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
January 4th, 2016 at 6:51:18 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: rxwine
I believe all our behaviors are the natural distribution of evolutionary diversity -- including religion.


Maybe. But since the advent of civilization, human evolution stopped being guided mainly by natural selection.
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January 4th, 2016 at 8:40:20 AM permalink
Canyonero
Member since: Oct 31, 2015
Threads: 10
Posts: 83
Quote: Nareed


But in the first place, we all have minds and free will. We can't control what we are or much of what we experience, but we can decide what to do about it. This trumps nature, nurture and nurture's "God" to boot.




Nareed, how do you reconcile being an atheist with the postulate of a free will?

I am not talking about the illusion of free will that we all need to survive in our daily lives. I mean the actual ontic thing.

All the arguments for a free will that I know of rely on spirituality and a higher power. "Magic" if you will. There is really no basis in science for the concept of a free will. Without spirituality, it is all cause and effect on an atomic level.
January 4th, 2016 at 3:21:08 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Canyonero
Nareed, how do you reconcile being an atheist with the postulate of a free will?


There's no need to reconcile anything. You might as well ask how I reconcile being an atheist with the force of gravity.


Quote:
There is really no basis in science for the concept of a free will. Without spirituality, it is all cause and effect on an atomic level.


Oh, there is a very real basis: it can be observed.

We may not know how it works, but we know it exists.
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January 5th, 2016 at 7:39:18 AM permalink
DJTeddyBear
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 5
Posts: 265
Quote: Evenbob
Zen is not a religion. It has no higher
power, it doesn't worship anything.

Since when does a religion require a higher power?

Is atheism not a religion?

I'm an atheist. That's the check box I select on forms that have a religion question.
Ignorance is bliss and knowledge is power. But having only some facts can get you into trouble!
January 5th, 2016 at 11:07:59 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18631
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Is atheism not a religion?


If people believing in worshiping Elves and praying to them would be a religion, does that mean that everyone who doesn't is practicing a religion?

I can never fathom the argument that atheism is a religion. It just doesn't make sense.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
January 5th, 2016 at 11:16:51 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: rxwine
I can never fathom the argument that atheism is a religion. It just doesn't make sense.


One of my favorites hobbies is not collecting stamps. It's followed closely by not following soccer and not playing golf.
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