Where is FrG?

June 29th, 2018 at 7:19:26 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
"The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter."


I don't think this is true at all! Where did you get this?


Quote:
In this case you have no choice. Neither
can prove there is a god or that they
talked to him.


This is just crazy Bob. First of all the question isn't about if they can prove there is a God. We have already both agreed that you cannot prove this in a mathematical sense. The question is are they trustworthy and is their testimony in line with the facts. Again you might do good to keep it in the context of a court of law. If someone testifies that they saw the defendant murder someone you can't prove that this is true. However, if they say the defendant was red headed when he is blond or that he witnessed this on a night when the defendant was not possible there you can rule out the testimony. You want to judge if there is a God or not, but you have only asked if we can take the testimony of a terrorist as correct, when it is obviously not.

Quote:
There is no choice but
to dismiss them as self deluded,


That is the worst and most illogical thing you can do. You are projecting here. You don't want there to be a God so you dismiss the testimony out of hand because anyone mentions God. That would be like dismissing the testimony against your defendant and when asked, "why you are dismissing it?" You respond because it says something bad about the defendant. It doesn't work that way. You can't just dismiss the testimony of people because you don't like what they say or because you don't believe it.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
June 29th, 2018 at 8:22:46 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You don't want there to be a God so you dismiss the testimony .


I dismiss it as evidence, you bet.
Same as I would in court if
two eye witnesses had opossing
stories. I would have no choice,
they both can't be right, they
both might be wrong, in fact.

So I would look for other evidence,
of which in this case, there is
none. I only brought this up because
you mention so many times the
huge importance of your personal
testimony as evidence. Let me
assure you, that guy with the vest
of dynamite going to get his reward
of 72 virgins, is every bit as convinced
his god story is true as you are
of your story.

To an atheist all god stories have to
be weighed as equal, we have no
favorites in this race. One god story
is as good as the next one, and they
all go into the file marked 'unsubstantiated
testimony'.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
June 29th, 2018 at 8:37:06 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
I dismiss it as evidence, you bet.
Same as I would in court if
two eye witnesses had opossing
stories. I would have no choice,
they both can't be right, they
both might be wrong, in fact.


Why have you so quickly abandoned your good advice to use reason and critical judgment? This is a much better way to determine the truth than just dismissing both. I agree that they can't both be right and they could both be wrong. Has it ever come to your mind that one could be right? Use your reason and critical judgment using the facts to determine that, not just your prejudice or your desire for them both to be wrong.

Quote:
So I would look for other evidence,
of which in this case, there is
none.


Good, that is exactly what you should do. In the case you are talking about there is obvious evidence. Does the Muslim who wants to blow up the bus actually correspond to the teachings of Islam. You quoted some pretty radical junk earlier without any source or reference from the Koran to support you but when called out on it as fake you just give up. Look at real evidence to the reality of their claims. Look at the people themselves, the documents, their Scriptures, authorities in the religion, your common sense, etc. There is lots of evidence to show that someone who claims God is telling them to blow up a bus is wrong.

Quote:
I only brought this up because
you mention so many times the
huge importance of your personal
testimony as evidence.


No you originally brought it up with the old tired argument that an atheist is like a believer who just believes in one less God. When shown how ridiculous this argument was you went on this tangent and dropped everything you said earlier. I assume you will soon drop this argument as well because you have been shown to be wrong again.


Quote:
To an atheist all god stories have to
be weighed as equal,


Correction: to an atheist who is not using his reason or critical judgment all God stories have to be weighed as equal.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
June 30th, 2018 at 12:23:52 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Why have you so quickly abandoned your good advice to use reason and critical judgment?


Reason and judgement points to no
god existing. Opposite personal
testimony from worshipers of the
same god point to no god existing.

God isn't a guessing game, it's not
comparing one persons story with
another's story, and figuring out
which one makes sense. That's
not evidence of anything except
your ability to be clever and fool
yourself.

Real evidence is doing the math and
attaching the airfoils to the body
and adding thrust and having it fly
just like the math said it would. And
being able to repeat it as often as
you want.

Of anything in the universe you should
be able to do that with, of all things, god
should be able to pass any test with ease.
There should be no argument, there
should never be any doubt. But all there
can be is doubt, because there is a total
lack of evidence.

I've said this before. You act like god is
hiding behind a bush, waiting to pop
out at us if we just look for him properly.
What kind of god is that, no real god
would act that way. But a fictional god
you made up would..

Some people need a god in their lives,
some don't. It's really not any more
complicated than that. Secularism
is growing at a rate faster than any
religion. They estimate that in 20
years half the world will be secular.
We have outgrown the need for mythical
gods.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
June 30th, 2018 at 5:15:44 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Reason and judgement points to no
god existing.


Actually they point directly to God existing.

Quote:
Opposite personal
testimony from worshipers of the
same god point to no god existing.


How do you come to such a conclusion? We have opposite personal testimony about God, where does that leave us? Why do two people who think different things about a subject cancel each other out? This makes no sense.

Quote:
it's not
comparing one persons story with
another's story, and figuring out
which one makes sense.


That is what a staggering amount of life is and of course it is one big part of the discussion about whether God exists and who is this God. Don't you do this dozens of times each day? We compare one persons story with another and we figure out which one makes the most sense based on facts, reason, and critical judgment. We do this with politics all the time.


Quote:
Of anything in the universe you should
be able to do that with, of all things, god
should be able to pass any test with ease.
There should be no argument, there
should never be any doubt. But all there
can be is doubt, because there is a total
lack of evidence.


Oh Bob, come on now. There is more to life than what you can experiment on and repeat. There are other ways to reach knowledge than the scientific method. Use your noggin, reason and think. Philosophy can discover truths science cannot and vice versa. To have such a materialistic view of the universe is to blind yourself to such things as love and art and the supernatural.

Quote:
You act like god is
hiding behind a bush, waiting to pop
out at us if we just look for him properly.


It is easier than that. Remember God wants to be found, it is us (or more specifically you) who is hiding in a bush and won't come out. Read the Genesis account of the Fall again. It is God who searches for us when we are lost and we hide from Him. Come out of hiding and He will find you, not the other way around.

Quote:
Some people need a god in their lives,
some don't. It's really not any more
complicated than that.


This is such an nonintellectual approach. You have boiled down the question of God to nothing but desire and feeling. Whether or not we think we need God or not is irrelevant to whether or not He exists.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
June 30th, 2018 at 5:52:38 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Actually they point directly to God existing..


This is all I'm responding to,
all the other points you made
I have already addressed,
it seems, dozens of times. Why
would I do so yet again.

"Actually they point directly to God existing.."

Of course this is nothing new, I've
heard it from you for years. This is
where I say, if they were pointing
at god, there would be no atheists,
only dumb people ignoring god.

This is where you say, that's exactly
what's happening, Bob, you are right
for a change. Dumb people ignoring
the obvious god!

I chime in with, you're a god salesman,
what else are you going to say. You
aren't looking for truth, you're looking
for ways to make your product, god,
more appealing. This is what they pay
you for.

The vows you took do not let you sway
very far from the teachings of the Church.
There is an agenda behind everything you
say, so your words must be read with that
always in mind. You will always defend
what you've been taught, the Church demands
it and that's your job. Truth is a pathless
land, but not in your world. Some people
like it that way, no need to think, all the
heavy lifting has been done for you. You
can sit back and relax..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
June 30th, 2018 at 6:26:59 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
This is all I'm responding to,
all the other points you made
I have already addressed,
it seems, dozens of times. Why
would I do so yet again.


That's okay, I know this is one of your code phrases for you are stumped.

Quote:
This is where you say, that's exactly
what's happening, Bob, you are right
for a change. Dumb people ignoring
the obvious god!


I have never said this! Have we been talking for so long and you actually think you have heard this?!? I just can't believe it. You are not a dumb person and you most certainly are not ignoring the discussion about God. First of all you need to keep in mind the definition of atheism, which you conveniently forget off and on. Most smart people will acknowledge the possibility of the existence of God and even recognize there is something higher and above our understanding but we can't really know anything about it; we call these people agnostic. Atheists deny the possibility of the existence of God. I put you in that camp unless you correct me. This atheism idea has no merit, but it doesn't mean you are dumb or ignoring God. It is held because it is an easier way to live, because of bad experiences people have had with religion and believers, because life is very difficult or some tragedy has made it very hard to reconcile with the idea of a loving God, or people were brought up believing half-truths, myths, or philosophical arguments that purportedly show there is no God.

I mean come on there is no real argument using reason or critical judgment or evidence that points away from God. I would be glad for you to show me something if you disagree.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
June 30th, 2018 at 8:19:08 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
That's okay, I know this is one of your code phrases -


Code for boredom. We discussed all
of it so many times, we are just runnin
in circles now. New subject needed.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
June 30th, 2018 at 8:35:50 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
I understand Bob. Read any good books lately?
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
June 30th, 2018 at 8:53:35 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I understand Bob. Read any good books lately?


Empty Mirror, about zen. No interest
to you..
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.