Where is FrG?

The stories are true. The only thing in doubt is the exact numbers of people. Nobody is doubting there were people from Cannan in Egypt who left mistreatment and difficult circumstances. These people were led by God and appointed leaders and received miraculous signs on the way. I don't know why you are so desperate to prove this wrong or false. The stories are true and so are the religious interpretations of them.

Quote: FrGamble

The stories are true. The only thing in doubt is the exact numbers of people..

That's like saying the Santa myth is
true, it's just that some of the details
got blown out of proportion.

The Bible is like that bit they used to
do on Candid Camera. They would
tell a story to one person, and that
person would tell it to another. It
wasn't very far down the line until
the details of the story were completely
lost, and even the purpose of the
story was changed. That's how the Bible
came to us, a cobbled together mess
of stories passed from one generation
to the next.

Quote: FrGamble

It is the truth, the most important truth - that necessary for salvation. But don't get it twisted. It is also historicaly true as seen through a religious lens.

That's such bafflegab and twisting of what I know to be the definition of truth, I'm disappointed, father. Truth is a precious, golden thing, and you can't have something being not true and true at the same time.

Quote: FrGamble

Not true at all.

Far be it of me to argue against such a profound and detailed analysis.

Quote: FrGamble

The stories are true. The only thing in doubt is the exact numbers of people.

no, that isn't the only thing

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Nobody is doubting there were people from Cannan in Egypt who left mistreatment and difficult circumstances.

yes, people are doubting that, and if they were the people who became the jews. Did you read the wikipedia page on the exodus? the historicity section and below enumerates these doubts, the lack of archeological evidence, and some possible explanations

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These people were led by God and appointed leaders and received miraculous signs on the way.

do you have any evidence for this outside of the mythical stories in the bible?

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I don't know why you are so desperate to prove this wrong or false.

no desperation, just the desire to separate fact from fiction

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The stories are true and so are the religious interpretations of them.

stories that lack evidence are just stories and may or may not be true, and what good are interpretations of events if the events never actually occurred?

Quote: Dalex64

yes, people are doubting that, and if they were the people who became the jews.

Many "explanations" have been suggested to justify the lack of evidence. They are all very plausible: 99% of all papyri of the period have been lost, Egyptians seldom recorded setbacks or defeats, people fleeing a land in a hurry would not have brought a lot of property with them, etc.

The problem is that we're supposed to believe large numbers of one particular group of people were held captive for generations, without leaving a single trace. Not one. We're also supposed to believe these people also wondered in the Sinai desert for 40 years without leaving a trace. Not one.

Where we do find plenty of evidence of the Hebrews is in Israel, which was called Canaan in ancient times. But to suggest this proves the Exodus, is tantamount to saying the presence of Mormons in Utah today proves the Book of Mormon.

Turning to internal consistency, though, there are two noteworthy aspects.

1) "Moses" is an Egyptian name. True. No need to dig much. It features prominently as part of the names of many pharaohs, like Ramses.
2) Some parts of the story describe both Egypt and the Sinai with a fair degree of accuracy.

Well, this tells us some Hebrews, perhaps a small band, may have lived in Egypt long ago, came to a bad end there, perhaps even were enslaved, and then fled and reached Canaan. maybe.

Maybe it's a story about Egyptians who converted to Judaism, found a bad reaction to this and ultimately fled to Canaan.

Or maybe it means some Hebrews visited Egypt, which they reached by way of the Sinai, and when they returned to Canaan told very tall tales.

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I don't know why you are so desperate to prove this wrong or false.

no desperation, just the desire to separate fact from fiction

From my experience, when a Christian says
'why are you so desperate to prove this
wrong', it's code for them running out of
arguments and why don't I just stop picking
on them. For an atheist it's our the constant
job to remind them they have no basis in
fact for their religion, it has to be taken 100%
on faith. That's the game their god plays,
believe in him and you will be rewarded. Not
'here's a boatload of proof that I exist, believe
in me and you'll be rewarded'. Faith without
proof is a very hard state of mind to arrive at
and maintain.

What I actually meant is that I am surprised so many atheists really want to read the Bible literally like a fundamentalist. I get that it might give them some low hanging fruit but it really seems disingenuous. Instead of actually dealing with what the vast majority of Jews and Christians believe and have believed for thousands of years lets nit pick about how many Jews escaped from Egypt. While we are at it lets talk about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

I don't mean to demean the necessary and important discussion of the historicity of the Exodus. While some people argue that the absence of evidence is positive proof that the entire story is false (an argument that if made by a theist would be roundly mocked). My concern is if we are not losing the forest to look at the trees. Here is a good video if you have a little more than an hour to spare about this issue. It is very fair and the most detailed archaeological discussion I think you can find on the internet. I guarantee if you hang in there you will learn something. Archaeology of Egypt as it relates to the Exodus

If we want to talk about the religious significance of the events then that is a good thread and could be a study of the Book of Exodus.

Quote: FrGamble

While some people argue that the absence of evidence is positive proof that the entire story is false.

It's the argument I use for not believing
in god, what's wrong with it. If there's
an absence of evidence in a trial, they
let you go free. Absence of evidence
isn't positive proof, but it's a darn good
start in that direction.

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that is a good thread and could be a study of the Book of Exodus.

What's the point of discussing the religious
significance of a book of made up stories
from 3000 years ago. Why not discuss the
significance of Lord of the Rings, there's
no difference.

Quote: FrGamble

If we want to talk about the religious significance of the events

We don't.

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then that is a good thread and could be a study of the Book of Exodus.

I did. In school. Twice.

That was when I started doubting "god" and eventually saw the light.

The surest way to turn people towards atheism is to get them to study the Bible. If I were you, I'd suppress it :)